Savage 10FP-LE .308 WIN 1/2" MOA rifle - Help restore lost accuracy

[40NAV]

New to Forum. I am asking for wisdom/experience on a few issues to restore my rifle's accuracy after the action screws came loose and action nearly came out.

Savage 10FP-LE in .308 WIN in older Staggered Feed Blind Mag (attached to action).
SWFA SS 10x42 Scope.
Action WAS bedded (read synopsis where it came off)
Ammo: MEN 7.62x51 146 gr FMJ German ammo at 2.792" OAL (since 1/2" grouping I understand MEN purchased by Magtech and quality of OAL +/- .005" & different bullet)

Questions:
1-Should I sand off witness marks where the receiver contacts the stock so that receiver only contacts pillars?
Original Plastic Stock (early 2000's rifle) shows witness marks where parts of receiver contacts stock sides adjacent to aluminum pillars.
Aluminum Pillars show marks where receiver contacts them.

2-Looking at replacing stock with Bell & Carlson aluminum block stock, but would I need to bed the stock or at least the barrel lug?

3-Thought the Aluminum block chassis eliminated the need for bedding?
If so why don't I just re-bed the original stock as it was before it came apart?


Synopsis:
Worked on rifle/ammo until it got groups down to 1/2" MOA. Super happy that day until I went home to clean rifle and while swabbing barrel noticed the action was wiggling around.
I was pretty lucky the action didn't blow back into my face at the range.

Re-tightened action screws. Next outing the rounds wouldn't load into mag.

Disassembled rifle and found JB Weld bedding broken loose.

Re-tightened action without rebedding. Groups shot at 2-3". Mag jammed again. (spring was bent)
Checked action screw torque (was over torqued) and torqued action screws in 5 in-lb increments up to 40 in-lb and group got down to 1 to 1.5" groups (inconsistently).

Today replaced mag follower/spring because mag jams.
AND found some witness marks on Action where it rubs stock. Found corresponding marks on stock inletting.
Thinking need to sand down those spots and just have contact with Aluminum Pillars. Any thoughts?

Thanks

[CFJunkie]

Having the best results on a day that the action was loose probably doesn't say anything about a consistent improvement in accuracy, so I wouldn't count on that as an improvement.
A loose action can cause a round to spray out of a group or it can cause a round to fall back into a group. Neither will be repeatable when the action is as loose as yours was.

1 - Sanding down the receiver where it contacts the action shouldn't be an issue, but it is not clear that the action didn't make those marks when the rifle was shooting with a tight set of action screws. Marks can be made as a tight fitting action is installed or replaced in the stock, assuming you had the stock off the action some time in the past.

2- I put a Bell & Carlson stock on my 10 FP LE .308 about 6 years ago (the adjustable stock version) and it actually improved my accuracy, primarily because I needed a bit longer stock because I have long arms. The aluminum frame on the B&C is much stiffer than the factory frame that came with my 10 FP. I've got almost 10,000 rounds through that old rifle and had Savage replace the barrel with a target barrel after 6,500 rounds.

3 - The aluminum pillars on a B&C do a great job of supporting the aluminum frame of the stock against the barrel and action. I also added a B&C Medalist to a Remington 700 .22-250 to replace the factory Tupperware stock on the 700 that was really flexible, much more flexible than the Savage factory stock. I didn't need to bed either action and the barrels free float all the way to the barrel lug and forward aluminum pillar structure.

[mnbogboy2]

The cheap savage plastic stocks that I have worked with all have had steel pillars molded into them. The accustock obviously are aluminum. Any stock with pillars in my opinion must be torqued sufficiently to remain at that same torque after repeated firing. Most savages like to be floated ahead of the recoil lug and at the "tang" behind the rear action screw. That being said the recoil lug must be solidly supported rearward against the stock.
With these conditions met a torque of 45-60 in/lbs on both screws should not put undo stress or twisting on the action and nothing on the barrel. The screws and threads can easily handle way more torque.
Because the plastic stocks are flimsy they bend upon recoil. Lighter action screw torque in "heavier" recoiling calibers like 30-06 and even 308 often lead to "loose" action screws. Wood stocks without pillars will loosen also because you cannot use the higher torques. A properly bedded action can get by with less torque because of less movement at recoil.
Aftermarket stocks with proper pillars and bedding will always be better than "plastic" factory stocks. However the aluminum blocked accustock is not totally terrible when torqued properly. Factory torque on these is way too light to remain there after repeated firing. (I have worked on a couple of these that the screws were finger tight when received after only 50 rounds).
Tuning loads with action screw torque has never been proven to show repeatable consistency from outing to outing on the hunting rifles I deal with.
Don't be afraid to tighten your action down to improve consistency.

[big honkin jeep]

If the ammo changed components then you may have to find another load it likes well enough to shoot that magic 1/2 MOA again.

It sounds like someone "skim" bedded it very thin if the bedding broke loose and I would either try to remove the old bedding job completely or re bed the rifle by relieving enough material for a layer thick enough to hold up along with some angular drilled holes to form a mechanical lock for the bedding. (I've never had a problem with JB weld as bedding) I've had quite a few of the old dual pillar bedded synthetics and found them to be very serviceable either as they come straight from the factory or bedded with epoxy.

Aftermarket stock is up to you but I've never needed to bed an aftermarket stock with an aluminum bedding block.

The mag problem, if there was no problem before the bedding came loose, may be caused by the stock not fitting properly and binding it but I would think the way the blind mags attach to the action on the old flatbacks should keep it in the right position.

Here's an article on torque tuning I've found very helpful in the past. http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/savage-action-screw-torque-tuning/

[40NAV]

Thanks Big Honkin Jeep and Mnbogboy2.

Skim bedding was by me and I agree taking out some material and drilling the stock will make it stick better. When I did the bedding long ago I didn't know about that. Also didn't know about inletting the stock at the rear tang so I'll check that and give it some clearance. When I bought this gun I was going to see if the tupperware stock would shoot well and it did, 1/2" group. Just need to massage it back again.

Only thing I don't think I can fix on the tupperware stock is the forend flex. Early versions of youtube fixes showed simple parallel braces that could be drilled through and I already have aluminum arrows to use. But when I looked at mine there are diagonal X braces which should be stiffer. I do know that if I use a sandbag under the barrel lug it shoots more accurately. Drilling these braces probably means drilling through the front end of the stock toward the lug brace. If I just lay JB Weld in those spaces will it stiffen it up. Or if I place the arrow shafts in those voids and JB Weld them in? I've seen videos where folks just filled the spaces with some epoxy.

For Ammo I find that my rifle likes longer OAL rounds since the MEN 2.792 is the longest ones I've found and they group the best. I found that measuring the OAL and grouping them into groups by length within .001-.002 of each other produced more consistent groups since many brands had such a variance in their OAL in a box.

So with your advice, I'll 1) Properly prep and re-bed the plastic stock/barrel lug. 2) Ensure the Rear Tang has clearance from the stock. 3) Maybe find a way to stiffen up the forend of the stock. 4) Ensure to monitor the Action Screw torque routinely. 5) Go back to trying to find a another ammo to use. Fed XM80 wasn't bad before the rifle came apart. 6) If all else fails, I'll go to a B&C Medalist stock.

I will say that I am currently on Temporary Duty out of state so I'm living out of a hotel for the next month. My results may take some time to report back but I will certainly work on these if I can get some loaner tools.

Any more advice is welcome any time.

Thanks

[40NAV]

I just checked out the torque tuning article listed by Big Honkin Jeep and yes that's the one I was using when I was checking torque values last week on the range. Started out at 20 inch-lb then 25 inch-lb with groups about 2.5". Then went to 30 to 35 inch-lb for 1.75" groups and at 40 in-lb it got to about 1". Went to 45 inch-lb and the group went back up to over 1.75". Backed it down to 40 inch-lb and it reduced down to about 1.25. When I was talking to Savage about replacing the mag follower and spring, I asked about the factory Action Screw torque spec. They said it should be 40 inch-lb.

I will see what the grouping is after the stock gets worked up and the action is put back in. The proof will be on repeatability each time the action is removed and reinstalled.

Thanks

[40NAV]

Hi CFJunkie.
I understand what you mean about rounds randomly impacting target with a loose action. All I can say is that the day the rifle settled into the 1/2" groups was hours before I started cleaning it and realized the action was very loose. I would have expected what you were saying, which made it more shocking to find out the action was loose when it made it's tightest groups. I have no logical answer.

Good point (1) as to when/what caused the marks on the stock. I'm not sure. I had the action off to do the original bedding. When the action got loose I just tightened it up. So maybe that's when the mag spring got bent. After that the mag didn't load properly I took apart action to find skim bedding material adrift in the stock and mag spring looking a bit too curved. Reinstalled the action and mag loaded fine. You get the idea. It's been in and out a bit. It's just that the last time I noticed marks on the action and in the stock the last time out.
I would see if sanding/roughing those areas as part of the rebedding process will fill the surround area to give a better/larger contact area for the action.

And replacing with a B&C stock is still in play.

[CFJunkie]

40NAV,

I too had issues with my old 10 FP blind mag once, but, fortunately, it was only caused by me not fitting the blind mag back into the stock correctly.
The front was too high and the bolt would not feed a round.
I finally figured out that it was my screw up and I reseated the mag correctly.
The rifle now feeds correctly and shoots beautifully again.

I hope you don't take the following wrong, but I provide it to share with some of the ways I was able to improve my accuracy at a time I too was changing stocks and such on my rifles.

I am a retired engineer so I have been trained to measure everything that I want to improve.
After I retired, I have done a lot of shooting at our local range and have found that regular practice has made a big difference in my results.
At 75 I am still doing that and measure all the groups that I shoot.
The long term averages with particular rifles and comparing Powder-Bullet combinations (or factory ammo choices) based upon measured results are what tells me how me and the particular rifle are doing.

I find that a few great single groups among a large number of larger groups are probably just anomalies and the long term average is the true measure of your accuracy.
But a significant number of great groups occurring with a number of much larger groups is an indicator of 'shooter induced variation' that is indicative of a probable technique problem that could be masking an accurate rifle's performance.

A few years ago I bought a really accurate rifle that came with 2 test targets with 5 round groups that were shot from a fixture. Both were at or under 0.1 inches.
I knew that the rifle was accurate.

Up until then, I always believed that the rifle or the ammo was the cause of inaccuracy because I never had anything to prove the inherent accuracy of the rifle without me behind the trigger.
After shooting the new rifle myself a while, I recorded a few groups that were under 0.2 inch - very few, about 0.1% - but my long term average was above 0.45 inches.
It proved that the rifle shot great but there were still a number of groups that were over 0.6.
That told me that I was the cause of most of the inaccuracy.

I started to concentrate on consistent set-up, both in positioning my body and getting eye-position behind the scope.
I also concentrated on ensuring my trigger pull was smooth and slow to eliminate jerking.
Over about 2 years, my long term average reduced by more than 25%.
My technique improvements also improved my accuracy with all my rifles.
My two model 10 Savage .308s improved by 29% and 26.5% respectively.

I have passed my observations on to several of my shooting buddies who wanted to improve and they have started to see improvements in just a few months.
I am still working on eliminating 'shooter induced variations' in my sessions.
I have to admit that they still occur when I get sloppy, but they occur with a lot less frequency now.

Eventually I learned to call my shots, that is identify immediately that I jerked the trigger or didn't have the right position when the trigger was pulled.
One telling indicator is that if the rifle stock was in the right position, my scope is still around the aim point after recoil and the bullet is at or very near the aim point.
If the stock was set-up out of position, the scope position is usually to the right and the point of impact is also to the right because the recoil pushed my shoulder back to the right.
I have learned to identify and fix those kinds of problems on the next shot and get the POI back where I expected it to be.

I also found that once I got consistent, the rifle wasn't the only source of inaccuracy.
Each rifle I have, even the most accurate, has preferences for powder or bullet weight and for factory ammos.
I find that to really understand what my rifles like, I needed to keep records of conditions, the components used, and measure and record my results.

Good luck in figuring out how to improve the rifle's accuracy by working on your stock. I agree that is it can be a major source of error.
But don't overlook the benefits of eliminating 'shooter induced variations' also.
Only using measurement of your results will give you the opportunity to find the clues to figuring out what to concentrate on the most.