keyhole with a 12 FV 223

[chemist1]

I have a savage 12 fv 223 with the factory 9 twist. For the first 500 or so rounds the gun was shooting great (average groups around 3/4 moa at 100 y w/ 55 gr varmint extreme and varmint nightmares from midsouth). Then a few weeks ago I went to the range and on 4 straight groups the 1st shot would keyhole and then the next 4 would group normally. I thought the barrel was dirty so I cleaned it with wipe out until there was no color coming out of the barrel. The next time out I only shot about 20, 75 gr A-Max and they were fine ( in fact I shot my smallest group ever out of the rifle at 200 y). Today I went back to the range and again the the first round would keyhole and then the other 4 would pass through the target correctly (again with 55 gr varmint extremes). I suspect a dirty barrel again but am not sure why the gun would be fouling so bad now. Prior to this the gun could go 100 or more rounds before accuracy would fall off. Could this destabilization occur for other reasons?

I have checked the crown and that appears to be okay.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

[dcloco]

You have a copper fouled barrel would be my guess.

After wetting the bore with some Hoppes #9, I use a plastic brush coated with a cream copper remover. Keep going until you get all of the copper out.

Have not tried Wipe Out, but others swear by it.

[82boy]

To start, I am not a big fan of wipeout. I would say you are having a carbon problem. In my experience wipeout does not attack carbon fouling, and the makers of wipe out have another product called "Carb out" with is suppose to cut the carbon.

What I will tell you is from my findings cleaning without scrubbing with a bronze brush is pointless. A bronze brush is a must to break up the carbon. To this very date, No one has ever produced a single smidget of even slight proof that a carbon brush can damage a barrel. All the myths about bronze brushes are just that myths, and hypothesis that people spew out. To prove this go to a benchrest match, (The bigger the match the better.) you will see just about ever competitor (Literal 100's depending on the size of the match) using a bronze brush, and pulling them over the crown. The guys strive for the utmost in accuracy, and if there was even a very slight chance that that brush would hurt them they would not do it.

Getting back to your situation, I find that 55 gr bullets are one of the worse bullet weights for a 22, I don't know why, but most people, myself included have problems with them. Try going to a 50 or 52 gr bullet or even go up to the 69gr bullets. I would say that if you having a fouling problem try different powders, and different weights, It sounds to me the gun is out of tune. The gun should produce better groups than 3/4 MOA, I would stied for a mim average of 1/2 MOA groups.

Back to cleaning your gun, I would take and scrub it out real good with some JB bore cleaner, then hit it with some sea foam and a bronze brush. Just go ahead and wear that brush out, scrubbing the bore. (I would say keeping the brush wet with sea foam, I would make about 3 or 4 reps of 10 passes, making sure the brush is tight on the rod, and using a bore guide.) Let it site for a hour or two with the sea foam in the bore, and then patch it all out. The main thing about cleaning is use ONLY a quality 1 piece rod, and ALWAYS use a bore guide, and you will not damage the bore.

[chemist1]

Thanks for the quick responses. I think the gun is probably capable of shooting better than 3/4 moa average groups but at this point I don't know if I am up to the challenge. I will, however, keep practicing.

[bigedp51]

I'm a big fan of foam bore cleaners and the U.S. Military uses it for a good reason. Foam bore cleaners like Wipeout will remove copper, carbon and powder fouling without the need for brushing.

It is all I use to clean my rifles and hand guns, below a picture is worth a thousand words. I let it soak overnight to get maximum results.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP5065.jpg

You could have a "reverse problem" from your button rifling and have a ruff spot at the end of your bore that needs filled with copper to make it shoot correctly. Use a magnifying glass and a bore light and look "inside" your bore.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/boattail.jpg

[frank1947]

Try the 69gr SMK and some varget after you get it cleaned up, if you have a good rest you should be able to shoot 1/2 at 100 my 10FP shoots a bit under that useing that bullet and powder.

[Harry Pope]

I used Wipeout in one rifle barrel, following the instructions carefully. It seemed clean, but I am a doubting Thomas. I then proceeded to clean the barrel as I have for years with Butch's, a bronze brush and lots of patches. Guess what? The bore was not clean until after I spent another 10 minutes cleaning it. Only then did patches would come out clean. Try it. BTW, military support equipment procurement sometimes has more to do with bid pricing than with performance.



.

[lago]

I am having a similar problem with a Savage 12FV in .204 Ruger, only it keyholes after 20 rds or so. I first thought the scope was bad but soon ruled that out.

I had problems with finding a brush that would scrub the barrel. I also started using a foam cleaner, don't remember the name. I was able to get some brushes, both bronze and nylon, and Hoppes Copper Solvent. The bronze lasted about 20 strokes thru the barrel. I worked with the nylon for 4 days and the patches are still coming out blue.

I have some Bore Tech Eliminator and Bore Tech cu+2 copper remover on the way and should be here tomorrow. I plan on working on the guns(have .223 and 22-250) and will try them out this weekend.

Lago

[82boy]

The bronze lasted about 20 strokes thru the barrel. I worked with the nylon for 4 days and the patches are still coming out blue.
Lago


Welcome to the site.
Been there, done that, got the T shirt to prove it.
Get Tipton brushes they are the BEST 20 cal brushes I have ever seen, they last a long time.

[chemist1]

Update. I cleaned the barrel with Hoppe's #9, KG1, and wipeout. I cleaned it until the patches had no color. I took the gun to the range this weekend and shot 12 rounds and every thing was fine. I then let the gun cool for a half hour while I shot my 22. The next group I shot the 1st round keyholed and then the next 4 passed through the hole made by the sideways bullet. I though this was strange because the barrel should not have been that dirty after just 12 rounds. After about a 1/2 hour I shot another group of 5 and again the 1st round keyholed and the rest grouped together about 1/2" left of the 1st shot. So now I am really scratching my head. I am starting to think that this has to do with barrel temperature because it always seems to be the 1st shot. It could also be the varmint nightmare extreme 55 hp as I have not had a keyhole yet from 55 soft points, 69 gr sierras, or 75 a-maxs. Any thoughts on what is happening? And thanks for the help.

[racinready300ex]

It also seems odd that the sideways bullet has the same POI as the others.

I have no idea.

[bluealtered]

Well it's a different caliber, but my 12fvss .308 has done the same thing with a clean barrel, clean being under 20rds. This barrel has reamer marks that will scare you silly, however after 20 or more rounds it has also shot a six shot 1" group at 200yds from an open rest. I now only clean this rifle when the groups drop off and thats between 100-150rds depending upon what powder and bullet i'm using. Good luck, blue.

[dolomite_supafly]

It could also be the varmint nightmare extreme 55 hp as I have not had a keyhole yet from 55 soft points, 69 gr sierras, or 75 a-maxs. Any thoughts on what is happening? And thanks for the help.


If it s only doing it with the varmint nightmare extremes and no other bullets then I think those bullets are the culprit.

Dolomite

[chemist1]

would you think an out of spec bullet? I was leaning that way as well. I am still curious as to why it would be the first one of the group. Thanks again for the help and ideas

[bigedp51]

I used Wipeout in one rifle barrel, following the instructions carefully. It seemed clean, but I am a doubting Thomas. I then proceeded to clean the barrel as I have for years with Butch's, a bronze brush and lots of patches. Guess what? The bore was not clean until after I spent another 10 minutes cleaning it. Only then did patches would come out clean. Try it. BTW, military support equipment procurement sometimes has more to do with bid pricing than with performance.



.


As soon as you stick a bronze brush in the bore you will get blue-green copper indications cleaning because the brush leaves traces of copper in the bore. If you stick a bronze brush in a milsurp barrel that is frosted the barrel well eat your brush and keep spitting out blue-green patches until the "brush" copper is gone.

How many of you have custom made hand lapped barrels with a bore as smooth as a babies bottom?

First shot flyer.........copper filling an imperfection in the bore smoothing it out for the following shots.

On some of my milsurps with pitted bores you need to fire several "copper" fouling shots to "smooth" up the bore.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/7-2-201085253PM.jpg

Copper could be filling any type imperfection or damage in the bore the first round.
(Doesn't anyone read the advertisements in gun magazines any more?)

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/7-2-201084712PM.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/7-2-201084244PM.jpg

And anyone who doesn't like foam bore cleaner has never seen an artillery piece cleaned "without" any brushing.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Before_Cleaning.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/After_Cleaning.jpg

Give me foam bore cleaner any day of the week, it can't damage the bore and you simply leave it sit over night and "wipe it out"

[~Ace~]

Are the bullets that Keyhole Flat base ? And the Boat Tails fine ? Check your Crown....

[5spd]

It could also be the varmint nightmare extreme 55 hp as I have not had a keyhole yet from 55 soft points, 69 gr sierras, or 75 a-maxs. Any thoughts on what is happening? And thanks for the help.


If it s only doing it with the varmint nightmare extremes and no other bullets then I think those bullets are the culprit. Dolomite

I had the same issues with the same bullets (55 HP) tumbling in my .223 FP10 & the 55 SP were not.
I sold the 55 HP bullets. I have to say its a MFG problem with that specific bullet.

[chemist1]

I will give some to my buddy and see it they keyhole in his .223. I will just stick to the stuff that works at this point. Thanks to everyone who offered advise.