Ejection, NOT AGAIN

[mnbogboy2]

Been down this road a few times and have always resolved it. This is the first time with a PTG bolt head.
Details;
6.5 Creed, 110 LA, .120 & .140 balls tried, 2 extractors tried, modified extractor worked best, 2 ejectors and spring sets tried.

Problem; drops on hard and soft pulls ( works on super slow pull).
New extractor works 25-50 rounds.
When dropping starts a switch from the 140 back to the 120 ball gave maybe 20 or 30 more good ejects.
The modified extractor (dremeled back ball socket with 140 ball) also added 20 or 30 good elects with a few drops.
No one thing will make it work for more than 50 rounds.
My next step is to modify the ejector pin to protrude another .010 or so.
Other than that I am stuck.
Question; Is the PTG bolt head giving anybody else grief with ejection (with Creed)
Thanks,
Randy

[RustyShackle]

Can you measure the depth of the bolt face? And the diameter?

what’s the rim thickness and diameter, and what brass are you using(not that this is the culprit)

lastly do you have an old extractor that you don’t mind buggering up? You might be able to cobble something together that would work, depending on what the geometry of the bolt head says.

Back in the day(way back), I welded a bolt head on an old Remington .22 bolt action that had been worn out to the point that it was no longer reliable. Here’s the interesting part. I used a car battery and jumper cables with a finish nail to get the job done. I left the weld proud and then filed it back flush where it was supposed to be.(Still works great) I’m not advocating that you grab the battery out of the grocery getter and go start welding on the bolt head. Possibly though if you need more material on the extractor you could. Guess I should make a disclaimer that anything you do is at your own risk. A .22 LR and a 6.5cm are worlds apart on pressures. one last edit, be darn sure you vent the battery and work in a very well ventilated area...Long jumper cables are advised if you decide to go this route.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PV5oLPLUzrM

one last tidbit, I only used a single battery since I was doing a more finesse weld job than the above video. And as stated make sure you use the positive to clamp to the work piece.

[mnbogboy2]

Rusty,
Here are some numbers that might help. I have two Creeds one with the Savage head works good.
PTG bolt face diameter .480 (Savage comparison .488).
Counterbore: .119 (Savage .115)
Brass: Starline .467-.4675 dia, .0465-.048 rim
FC. .465-.4675 dia, .047-.049
Currently using just Starline.

Also measured comparative minimum distance between the "lip" of the extractor and "far side" of the counter-bore:
Savage bolt head (not modified) .431".
PTG bolt head un-modified .440
PTG bolt head with .140 ball, .440.
PTG bolt head with .140 ball and modified extractor (dremmeled), .436.

This morning's shoot with the modified extractor showed no drops but still very weak ejection. Next measurement will be the comparative distance from the extractor spring hole to the bolt head centerline. I will pull the bolt head apart to try some more mods with the dremmel and the ball socket. A small file is used to relieve below the extractor lip. Have a box of used extractors so I can "play".
My wirefeed welder is at my son's house in another state. My big A.C. welder won't go down low enough, but maybe the "battery" welder might be just enough to add the .005's worth of material to the lip.
Now that I am retired there is no access to a mill anymore. Otherwise I would make one from scratch.
With my old cataract eyes not sure if my welding skills are what they used to be. Finesse used to be building new teeth in a circle saw or repairing the holder cut of an insert tooth saw.
Hope you can make sense from the numbers but the extractor location may be the key here.
Thanks,
Randy

[RustyShackle]

Well, no glaring red flags. If you can do a fill weld and reprofile the socket for the ball on the extractor you could shift it over and probably tighten things up a little. Might help.

Do you have a way to measure the distance(spacing) between the bolt face and the extractor cuts?(where the cartridge rim sits) Possible it’s a little out.

You might try beefing up the ejector spring. How’s it feel with a case snapped into the bolt head?

[mnbogboy2]

Rusty,
Thanks for the input.
Thinking outloud...I have a deep cycle battery from the camper in the garage. Now dreaming how to shave down a 1/16 welding rod to about .030 or so. Then apply a little flux to the part.
Moving on...
I can measure and compare the extractor guide cuts. Also when I remove the ejectors I want to do the same with the spring hole location.

The thing I did notice when I installed the ejector was that the retaining pin hole was loose with a new Savage retaining pin, the swedged part was loose in the hole. Ended up flattening that end to make it hold. My concern there would be if it is the wrong size then maybe it is also located too far from the bolt face. This would keep the ejector from traveling as far out. When the cases drop in the action it seems like the ejector is close ( if not already) at full extension. That is why I mentioned modifying it in my first post.
The spring is new and pushes real well when manually inserting a case in the bolt head. If I modify the ejector I will give it a little "extra" stretch & compare it to another new spring.
Thanks again for your help. I'm sure you and all our barrelnut brothers can figure this out (maybe once and for all) lol!
Randy

[RustyShackle]

http://www.savageshooters.com/showthread.php?11358-300wtf-ejection-problems

I would recommend reading through this old thread from yesteryear. It might help.

Geometry is everything, and is becomes somewhat complex in a system with 3 axis’. I would be looking close at the ejector and retaining pin, as you pointed out it might be mis-located. In the thread linked above they fixed a similar issue by modifying the ejector itself.

Cheers

[Texas10]

I love to fix things, and ferret out failure modes, but now that I'm in my mid sixties I prefer the easier route. I would order a couple of bolt heads from Savage and see if that fixes the problems. Or did you already try that?

[mnbogboy2]

Rusty and Texas,
Wish I had another Savage head to try . Being retired and living lean don't want to order one just yet. I bought the PTG from another member it was new and I paid more than a Savage in the first place. Really would like to see it work better than the run of the mill Sav.
I've read that post before but the first link won't work on this phone so my memory wasn't totally refreshed on the ejector mods.
There is a lot of things to try so time to get busy. Trial and error applies on this one as the scientific method (lol).
Thanks again,
Randy

[wbm]

Bought an ejection kit from a member a year or so ago and put it on my older flat rear Savage. Literally made it throw brass as well as my 1903A4 Springfield. Never had a Savage that ejected like that. Took the kit off and put it on a Savage 22-250 that was like the one the OP has. I had previously put another kit on the 22-250 but it did not help....why the one kit solved the problem and the other did not remains a mystery to me. Any thoughts?

[RustyShackle]

Well, I’ll try to post this image from the other thread.

4983

There are few things I’m aware of that can cause issues. I’ll start out by saying the last time I had issues I just ordered a kit from Fred. Just easier since I don’t have a machine shop with everything that makes working and modifying parts time efficient.

The counter bore of the bolt face vs the ejector length is important as is the extractor, coupled with the bolt raceway and lug abutment in the receiver there are a couple problem areas. The abutment lug in the receiver has a corner that in some instances can physically cause the spent brass to be ‘pushed’ out of the extractor causing it to fall. Easy fix is to mill(or file this sharp corner).

The diameter of the bolt face face and the diameter of the brass coupled with the difference of the extractors length can be cause for concern. A ‘tighter’ fit isn’t always best, but generally speaking it helps. I found that trial and error and closely watching can identify where and what problem may be exhibited.

The height of the extractor from the bolt face. I don’t have this nailed down just yet, maybe a mixed bag. I will look over my notes on this at home this evening and follow up with what I’ve found. I at one point used a dremel cut wheel to mill out the bottom of an extractor because it was semi rounded and the angle it was machined at wasn’t entirely providing good contact with the brass. I used the dremel in a very scientific and precise way(eyeballed) and re-cut the bottom of the extractor, I set this with a negative camber and the rifle in question went from a 60% reliability to 100%.

I would like to modify an extractor to have a few more thousandths in an arc towards the top(opposing the ejector) but again I’m not setup to do such. Maybe it’s time to bust out the car battery, dremel, and modify one of he spares I have sitting around and start testing. Only savage I have currently that I might be able to argue that this didn anything to help is my daughters .243. It currently wears the SSS kit.

tried again on the picture. Might have to click on it to see better.

[mnbogboy2]

Thanks Rusty...the image didn't come in tho.
Anyway, I didn't get a chance to tear it apart again today, but more rain coming tomorrow so may do it then. Before I start I will check ejector protrusion and compare.
Later,
Randy

[mnbogboy2]

Progress
Finally got back to that project this morning. After disassembly and measurements found that PTG extractor spring hole centerline is actually .006 farther from the bolt head center than the measured Savage head (.324 PTG - .318 sav). But because the PTG head has the smaller counter bore (.480 vs .488), the actual grab of the extractor may only be .002 less on the PTG.
I modified the extractor a little more with the dremmel. I think I gained .001-.003 on the ball center, but I didn't measure it before I started. You can visually see the difference when dropping a ball in it and comparing it to another one with a ball laying in it.
Of coarse in true form to the "scientific/trial by error" method, I also replaced the extractor & spring with new parts (not altered).
Guess what? 15 straight ejections with no failures at any speed! Although they would have not been thrown into the next county.
If it stays this way I will be happy.
Keep your fingers crossed,
Randy