10" Gong from 857 Yards.... Tips, tricks, suggestions?

[LoneWolf]

YB,

There's long range hunting and there's long range bench rest utilizing animals as the target.... Most of the friends I have who do long range hunting hike in and out. They either find a position they can get prone or they use a tripod like the Really Right Stuff offerings. Then they hike in to the kill and pack it out. I understand you are speaking from your experience and I've never had a problem with that, but you tend to be closed minded when other have more experience shooting in many numerous situations. That's what shooting PRS has taught me, how to make a solid position in most any situation and that's the biggest difference between your experience and mine.

SR,

Your current experience level is low, don't worry it will grow. You can work other options like turning the truck around and shooting over the roof. Just lay a shooting mat down if you don't want the bipod to scratch it. I prefer prone over a bench. It's my comfort zone same as YB's comfort zone is obviously a bench. If prone is not the best option in the situation do to not being able to see the target etc. then you will need to adapt like you started to shooting out of the truck. At 6'5" if it is not an 8' bed I have a hard time shooting prone and will use my tripod. However, my tripod probably costs more than most guys Savages on here and I can hold half MOA groups off it. Don't worry about it, just think how you can raise your hit potential. The way you do that is by finding stability and increasing your level of comfort while shooting.

If you search "Phil PKS" on YouTube I have a bunch of videos from matches shooting in numerous positions. Before I started competed and the first 2yrs or so during I spent my time trying to figure out how the best guys got so many hits. My crosshairs would be wobbling around the target like an offhand standing shot. I thought they were ninja level experts at timing their shots, when in reality their fundamentals of building positions were at such a high level they could actually minimize the "wobble" to a point it would stay inside of the target at hand. As gear has progressed in the sport, targets have continuously gotten smaller and stages range from basic "confidence builder" stages to very tough stages. We shot a stage at the match down at CORE Shooting Solutions in FL that had 5 positions with 3 targets at 3 different distances for positions 1,2,4, and 5. and a different set of 3 targets at a different distance from the rest, but all within 5yds of each other distance wise, but they were spread out about 50yds apart for position 3 with a 2min time limit. The top guys are still cleaning those stages or getting 85-90% on them.

Don't limit yourself, figure out what works! Try a bench, try the top of the truck, use what you have available and learn to make the position the best it can be for stability.

[SageRat Shooter]

LW,

Thanks for the vote of confidence and I always appreciate your Kung Fu. Most of my life I've shot off a bench whether it be at the range or in the PD fields. I just recently started shooting prone and found it to be so much more solid to shoot from. Seems like I can hold .5 MOA off the bench, but .25 MOA from prone (Metaphorically) it just feels more solid to me. I also found that I can hold my natural POA by just loading the bipod. At least from 450 yard shots... Seemed like I had no tension in my arm or hand when I made that shot. And my follow through was much better then, as I could keep my target in the reticle and could see when I hit the gong. Not so much with the 857 shots. I also want to use the prone position a lot more, as there are no "benches" in the woods or on the landing one is overlooking when hunting, I want to use what will be available to me so when big Bambi or his Cousin decide to walk out in the open meadow across the canyon, I'll be confident/comfortable enough to make a good shot.

I'll keep at it... I know I'll get there pretty soon as I was so dang close this time... :thumb:

[yobuck]

Well I'm not here to argue, but i will attempt to set things straight, and let others argue over it if they so choose.
There is a major misconception with regard to long range hunting.
This has always been true, and it is mainly held by those who have never actually done it or even seen it done.
But also by those that might have, but only in the particular area they hunt, or maybe for a different species, like varmits.
Also, very big differences exist between the open plains of some western states, and the rugged mountainous tree covered hills of other states.
What might be possible at one place, might not be possible at all at another without employing different tactics.
Improvised shooting positions are fine as in some types of target shooting, because everybody is bound by the same rules, and nothing gets hurt or wounded, except maybe ones pride.
Those who improve their skill level, reap the rewards for their effort, and that's as it should be in any activity.
The argument could be made that hunters should do the same as for practice, practice, practice, before they are considered qualified.
But fact is most don't, and some that claim they do, actually don't either. Fact also is that it really isn't necessary anyway, if they use their head and aren't all bound up by their own ego, by insisting upon doing things in a certain way.
And by that I'm not implying that good shooting dosent matter at all, because it obviously does, it just boils down to what works for what and how we do it.

There are actually 2 parts involved to L/R hunting. First part is the hunting or finding part, which also differs from one place to another, again mainly due to terrain.
And then there is the actual shooting part.
As for getting them out after they have been shot, there are various ways of doing that, and all require serious effort.

In the east, there is almost no possibility for any type of a spot and stalk type hunt.
At least in the areas where most L/R takes place, and again that's largely due to terrain.
Yet in many places in the west there is, and a great number of hunters do that. Also lots of walking is done there, and stopping at various places along the way to glass. So therefore they might also be forced to use an improvised position when they shoot.
Also in the east, virtually all L/R hunting is done from a lookout or vista, meaning a fixed location. Often, they are (created), with many being considerable distances from a road. Depending on the location, shooting distances could vary from a few hundred to a thousand or more yards from the same place. Some might have had benches built from gathered flat rocks, wood nailed on a stump, or possibly even a small bench that had been carried in then reassembled and stashed. Some guys even stash their guns and other equipment over night if they plan on returning the next day or maybe even everyday.
Over the years i have built quite a few portable benches, and I'm still looking for ways to improve upon them. Key things are of coarse weight and stability, but also we incorporate things that help us to stay
on the animal regardless as to what they might do following a shot.
I keep at least one in my jeep all the time which weighs in at about 20# for the bench. That bench has been carried to many places quite aways from the vehicle. We also don't mind carrying a 15 or 20# gun to those type places. Also the glasses might weigh 10 to 15# plus a tripod.
We don't share glasses, each guy has his own carried in a backpack, including kids.
If we hunted from a different location every day of the 2 week season, we couldn't cover even half of the different locations we have.
Some we haven't hunted on in years. Some are locations on power lines and natural gas pipe lines of which there are plenty in NC PA. Some can be driven to, and as stated some cant. Some you can, but most guys wont, due to respect for their vehicle.
We can also hunt right from the front yard of our camp if we so choose, and most of our practice shooting is done there.

Modern day long range hunting,( meaning dialing scopes,) started right there in that part of the country long before i got involved, and from there it has spread across the country.
Some don't appreciate being told that, but that dosent change any facts.

The hunting part, is basicly done in PA in the same manner by every long range hunter who hunts there.
That would be by using large, and sometimes even extremely large tripod mounted binoculars. Including some reconditioned WW2 very large ones, with 120mm and even larger objective lenses. Something most people have never seen, let alone looked thru and used.
Bucks in PA need to have at least 3 points on at least one side to be legal, and in some areas of the state its 4 points.
So for that reason alone, good glasses are a must.
The vast majority of the glasses used today are made up by using 2 matching spotting scopes in a machined fully adjustable bracket.
High end scopes like the 80mm Swarovskis and Kowas in pairs are very commonly used.
Even the very best hand held glasses wont cut it for serious long range glassing sessions unless their on a tripod.
The glasses are also used for spotting shots for the shooter, and that plays a very important role in keeping the whole thing in order. There really shouldn't be (any) long range hunting done without a spotter, regardless of who or how good the shooter is.
Its not at all uncommon to watch a deer get hit in a good spot and it not show any sign of being hit. Thats possible with any cartridge, but especially with lighter bullets at the longer distances. Also in a rut situation, the group of deer you've found might be constantly moving about due to being pushed by a buck. A lone shooter could very easily shoot the wrong animal in that situation without even realizing it.
Its also very possible that a bullet never arrives at the target, due to hitting branches.
Just some of the things many shooters/hunters never experience.

Is it possible some of the OPs bullets never arrived when he shot at that plate?
Whats the mid range trajectory of that cartridge at that distance?
Where there any trees near the target?
They are things that only ones having the actual experience of seeing, can make them be appreciated as being possible, and even very likely to happen when hunting.
Guns actually play a lesser roll than do the glasses. Even a rangefinder, which most think to be of primary importance, is less important than good tripod mounted glasses.

As for the shooting part, I doubt there is a single person here who dosent shoot from a bench when working up loads.
And the reason is that's how they can be the most accurate when they shoot.
Does it then not seem logical to shoot that way at live animals especially at long distances?

Ive said here before somewhat in jest, that if this were hard, then most of us couldn't do it.
But like it or not, the fact is that's true.
Many of the L/R deer killed at our N/C PA camp over a period of more than 45 years, have been taken by young kids or adults with almost zero long range shooting experience.
But of coarse it can be made to be hard also, if we so choose.

Those who prefer laying in dirt or mud, on top of rocks, on a foot of snow, and maybe looking thru some brush when they shoot, will get no argument from me if they insist on making it hard on themselves.
But they can take it to the bank, that if they happen to gut shoot a deer and it takes off running especially in trees, they will not stay on it, meaning keeping it in the scope, and they might not even find it again for a follow up shot before it leaves the area completely.
And they can pretty much count on the coyotes having it before daybreak.

Now some might realize that i pulled this post and shortened it as some of it wasent necessary to make my point.
I actually thought i had done that before posting, but for some reason i hadn't.
Its still long and for that I'm sorry, but there are things i feel that need to be said on this subject when i see a reason for doing so.

[LoneWolf]

Well, I do load dev from the prone :cool: and most of my buddies do load dev from the prone. Unless I need to get above the mirage it's always my preference. I shoot just fine from the bench too. The point of my post is there's options and building any position regardless of the platform has the same fundamentals. Afterall, shooting from a bench is just "modified" prone is it not?

have fun y'all go burn some powder this weekend and hopefully it's dryer for you then it looks like it's going to be for me!

[yobuck]

Well, I do load dev from the prone :cool: and most of my buddies do load dev from the prone. Unless I need to get above the mirage it's always my preference. I shoot just fine from the bench too. The point of my post is there's options and building any position regardless of the platform has the same fundamentals. Afterall, shooting from a bench is just "modified" prone is it not?

have fun y'all go burn some powder this weekend and hopefully it's dryer for you then it looks like it's going to be for me!

Well you would be the exception as for doing that.
And no doubt you are also an exception as to your ability to shoot in that position, and i mean than in a complimentary term and not of a sarcastic one.
That said, (YOU) probably wont stay on a deer running thru the woods either from that position.
And even if you did, you would need to take your eyes off of it while you scrambled to get into the now required reposition for another (accurate shot.) Meanwhile, whats that wounded animal gonna do, stand around and wait for you?
I mentioned the word misconception, and one of the biggest is that shooting ability trumps everything else.
And the hard reality is, that it dosent always.
The reason kids and other beginners do as well as they do is for one simple reason, (they listen).
I'm not gonna go burn some powder today, but i just might build up enough energy to take the boat and try to catch a few for dinner.
Its a Friday tradition. lol

[LoneWolf]

You're going to make me post the video of the mover stage from CORE aren't you..... lol There's a number of things at play as always...

I wouldn't choose prone if it wasn't the best position for the situation... But I would be confident in my ability to pick a position to make a solid shot as well as consideration for distance, wind conditions, etc.

That's the point though, OP isn't hunting here...... Steel isn't going anywhere... I've shot movers in numerous positions at distances out to 600yds of course deer don't typically run in a straight line. Patience is always a virtue.

[SageRat Shooter]

I am only shooting steel in this situation, I am completely new to this LR shooting thing, but the bug has bitten me and I just want to keep improving. I am becoming a huge fan of the prone position as I know and feel it to be the most stable position I've ever shot from. While I am practicing at 850 in this situation, it is to train for shooting rabbits, fox, badger, PD, coyote, and other varmints at that range. I do not ever plan on shooting anything bigger than that at that range or longer... 400 would probably be as far out as I would try shooting deer and for sure Elk (and that's after I have practiced and felt confident at 850 or more) as the round doesn't carry enough energy for a clean kill past that distance. Additionally, my primary hunting rifle is actually my 30-06 which I wouldn't be attempting a shot past 200 with it ever. Most of my hunting is done brush hog style and climbing over deadfall. there only a handful of spots where I can swap rifles and go perch myself on top of the landing and glass out to 400 yards or more.

This is practice for me, and a hobby I've taken up as I've aged.... I can't play hoops anymore, my golf game sucks after not playing for 5 years (my body won't move the same) Big mountain snow skiing is virtually non existent and my class 5 kayaking days are behind me as well.

The only thing left that gets me any kind of "rush" seems to be shooting... The farther out I get, the more rewarding it seems to be for me. I don't think it's easy by any means either.... otherwise everyone would be able to do it. Isn't that why military snipers are an elite group?

[Stumpkiller]

I admire the hell out of you guys who can hit at 800+ yards.

On my property there is one opportunity (well, two depending which way I am facing) where I can walk out the door and eventually line up an 880 yard shot (without crossing a road). But it is an unlucky coyote that walks into even a 500 yard shot from me. On the other hand - prone is tough. The weeds/goldenrod/tufts and very often snow would be well above my scope and bore if I lay down prone. So I practice frequently seated & either resting elbows on legs or using cross-sticks.

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My typical whitetail deer shot is 10 to 120 yards, averaging under 50 yards. ;-) They just seem to avoid the open spaces during daylight hereabouts.

Here is a "real" shot lane taken from a stump I was sitting on. Just about center is a yellow reflection from the bolster of a knife that I placed in the foot-square window where I lined up a 60 yard shot on a whitetail buck. I seldom see a whole deer all at once during deer season.

4843

The .260 Rem is still ideal even in "tighter" situations. As an all-purpose varmint to medium/300# game it is right there.

My current deer "stand" is a bench under a hemlock with dead branches around it to break my outline and give some cover, and I have three lanes I watch that would give 100 to 150 yard shots. This past year I had an eight-point come in from behind over my right shoulder and I had to twist and put one in his chest as he stopped and stretched his head out to look around a tree and "made" me (I think he saw the barrel moving when I turned). All I saw was brown in the scope . . . from 12 yards.

Moral: practice the long shots but be ready to take every available opportunity. :thumb: When was the last time you practiced 100 yards standing offhand? Or 12 yards seated but facing the wrong way. ;-)
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[SageRat Shooter]

I've never practiced a 100 yard standing offhand shot... LOL!! I practiced a 145 yard kneeling shot 2 years ago.... Drilled my 5 point bull Elk 1 shot right through the heart.... Does that count? LOL!!

[LoneWolf]

Over the last 4+ years I've had to shoot accurately from such a large variety of situations with different distances and target sizes/combinations. Both utilizing Dialing and holdovers at times, that there isn't really much that intimidates me anymore.

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[LoneWolf]

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[LoneWolf]

California, New Mexico, Ohio, North Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, Tennessee, South Carolina, Florida, and I'm hoping to add Texas to the list come December for the PRS Finale this year.

[Stumpkiller]

I've never practiced a 100 yard standing offhand shot... LOL!! I practiced a 145 yard kneeling shot 2 years ago.... Drilled my 5 point bull Elk 1 shot right through the heart.... Does that count? LOL!!

Kneeling is good. ;-)

A wise man makes use of every rest or cover he can find.

But, next will be "weak hand".

I played paddy-cake with the wrong parts on my Ford 640 tractor and lost the end of the ring-finger on my right hand. It was successfully reattached (whew!) but made pistol and bow (traditional recurve) shooting a whole new experience for 18 months or so. Though when I shot PPC in the 1980's we did "weak hand" so I did OK that way.

With a witness (who had just dropped the rifle down to me from off the back deck) I made a standing 150 yard running head-shot on a coyote (with one of my chickens in it's mouth) with a single-shot .223 Rem. Best shot I ever made. Diagonal across our "pasture".

Not a shot I would take at a deer (or elk), but for a predator - practice pays.

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[SageRat Shooter]

Weak hand is not an option for me unfortunately... I was born with Brachial nerve damage in my right arm/hand... I have no dexterity in that hand. I can open and close the hand, but can't function the fingers individually... I have very little feeling in the hand either... I can tell real hot or real cold, but in between that I can't tell what it is... It hasn't slowed me down too much in my life, but there are a few things it did... Shooting from the weak side is one of them.

[yobuck]

If you learned to ride a bike in California, and moved to New York, could you still ride the same bike just as well?
If you can hit groundhogs in WV, could you hit prairie dogs in WY same way with the same gun?
If you could break 100 straight targets at 16 yds, will you be as good on ducks along the Mississippi flyway?
How about if you watched lots of videos first?
None of this conversation means anything, unless you've shot at the ducks.
I could keep this thing going for another month with hunting stories, a few of which didn't have nice endings.
Make up your mind that not all of the (Best of the west) end well either, but lets not talk about that.
After 70 seasons, there are lots of stories, but they wouldn't mean anything.
Nothing said about anything, means much of anything, until we ourselves have shot at the ducks.

I cant post pics, but i can email pics from my laptop.
If say Stumpy can post pics here, that have been emailed, ill send some along. I just need an address.
Then maybe we can discuss a get together where different methods can be actually tested.
They say pics don't lie, and will show that we can in fact get from 400 to 3400 from a nice lawn.
Also i could take you to some other places, where we might be lucky enough to find rocks with paint on them, and you could lay on some neat stuff while you shoot at them. Or choose not to.
We can compare a few cartridges also. lol
When the shooting is over, we can have a nice discussion about shooting long range in a hunting environment over food and beverages.
These kind of conversations are only good for starting arguments, and that's the best way to settle them.

Binghamton NY would be an easy 4 hr drive.
One way airfare from Orlando for example to one of 3 airports within 3 hours is about 60 bucks.
Free room and board, but bring your own beer, as i don't drink beer.
Pretty much guaranteed to see elk, and maybe thru the windows.

[eddiesindian]

this time of year in these parts mirage and wind is a killer. Flags and back that power back to 16X or play with parallax to focus in front of the target to help read the mirage. depending on the light sometimes it helps me.
Plus 1

[SageRat Shooter]

So I got back out to the canyon on Saturday and took a few different bags both front and rear this time. Decided to start at 440 yards this time, but still shot out of the back of the truck bed (forgot the shovel). Set gongs up at 440 yards and 935 yards (didn't know it at the time). I trued my drop at 440 to start (and I mean dead center of the plate from 440 yards) and then moved back to 935. Took me about 14 rounds to get on plate from back there, but they were consecutive hits... hit the right side of the gong first and then made 1 click windage adjustment and hit the left side of the plate (looked like a set of eyes) shots were about 5.5 inches apart. (440= 2853 MV 935= 2832 MV) these were what my truing velocities came back as.

We pretty much have that spot stretched to its limits, but when I go back again, I will have to see if i can find an angle that reaches 1000 yards, so I can try for my Milk jug challenge!! :first:

Just wanted to say thanks to you guys who gave me advise/encouragement to reach my goal. FWIW... had to take the bipod off and just shoots from my gorilla front bag and my normal Caldwell rabbit ear rear bag and managed to get the truck a bit more level this time. It was just my position that was the problem... Thanks LW!! :thumb::thumb: I.... And I had virtually no wind this time... I had a .5 left to right wind plugged in to Strelok when I made the 2 hits... the first 14 rounds I had a 2 mph left to right plugged in. as soon as I made that windage correction.... BONG!!

[yobuck]

Very good, what all this means is that you have the ability to do it.
The only thing stopping you from doing it has been your setup.
The 14 shots you missed, were only missed because you didn't have a good spotter using good optics to help you get you on.
And you proved that by making hits once you finally did get on.
My suggestion would be to just dial for the elevation, and hold for the wind based on where your last shot hit.
At this point its important for you to hit the plate, and the least complicated you make it the better.

[LoneWolf]

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Solid buddy! Knew you could do it! I got out to a local match up in VA over the weekend and had a good time. The Long Range stage here only made it out to about 821yds, but shot well enough to walk away with 2nd place. Keep at it and above all else, have fun!!

[SageRat Shooter]

Thanks Yobuck, but I did have a spotter and he had decent spotting scope. I just couldn't believe that I had a "no wind" situation, when I was setting up the target, I took wind readings ranging between 0-4 mph... I figured I'd split it and go with a 2 mph wind... It wound up being 1/2 mph wind... I like to dial for both, but I'm still new to all this... as my comfort level grows, I may start holding off for wind.

LW,

Thanks to your willingness to share some of your Kung Fu!! :-) You don't have to worry about me having fun... The smile on my face just keeps getting bigger every time I hear that "Bong!!"