Electrolytic copper removal

[hailstone]

Noted a link in another thread about use of electric means of copper removal from barrels. The following link was given: http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews/copperout/pdf/makingthesurplus2.pdf. Well being cold today and with not much else too do decided to make up one of these apparatus. I made several modifications too the overall apparatus but keep the electrolyte formular the same. Rather than using two D-cells I used a 12 volt DC battery charger for the power source. Unbelievable how much gunk came out of an old take off barrel. Sure glad I used this old barrel as a learning tool. Definately will need modifications before using on a good firearm. Main issue is the boiling off of electrolyte. I used a hose on the barrel end but next time will use a longer one along with plastic tee too drain into seperate vessel. Suspect I let it run too long (25 minutes) but it was impressive the amount of junk that came bubbling out. After draining everything and giving everything a good wash down in hot water proceeded too clean the bore by regular means. I tried some Montana Extreme 50 BMG copper remover first -- nothing just a brown tinted patch. Next used bore brush with Hoppe's No. 9 and patches with them coming out as you would normally expect.

Don't know if there are any chemists out there who are brother shooters but my curosity has got the better of me. Just what is happening in this electro/chemical reaction? It apparantly does remove the copper fouling but in what form? Its not plated on the rod like you'd chrome plate something.

I have several other take off barrels too experiment with so will try different modifications determining what works the best.

[drybean]

use a small charger from a small hand tool 3-6 volts
the amps will be down ,yest take longer

[Nor Cal Mikie]

I used a battery charger set on low. Worked great. I was working on a rusty black powder barrel to see how it would work. I ran a small steel rod inside the barrel with "O" rings to keep it from touching the bore. Sure got rid on the gunk!

[hailstone]

My next attempt will be using the 6 VDC charger setting. Will also cut the time in half too 20 minutes. Going to make overflow setup for muzzle end too drain into a seperate container. I just used a rubber stopper to plug the chamber end. Pro Shot 17 caliber SS cleaning rod with several rubber insulation sleeves for solderless terminals worked great in a 30 caliber barrel. Will be interesting when smaller bores are encountered probably will end up using heat shrink tubing instead.

[dcloco]

I use a 6 volt battery. You might want to forget about using a battery charger, they don't turn off if something happens....as in...you will have a short and a fire.

For the metal rod, go to the welding supply store, ACE, or whatever...and buy the steel rod used for welding with a torch. Buy some small heat shrink, cut in 1/2" lengths, and shrink on the rods every 6 to 10 inches so the rod does not touch the inside of the bore.

Put the stopper at the muzzle end and seal it with a touch of silicone. Pour the solution you wish to use in the chamber end. A narrow/long funnel will help assist in this endeavor.

For solution, I use about 1/3 Hoppes #9, white vinegar, and distilled water. Warm the distilled water first, pour the other contents in, mix, then add to barrel.

Connect the NEGATIVE side of the battery to the rod....positive to the barrel. Negative attracts. The rod will look like a fuzzy caterpillar after about 30 to 45 minutes. FLUSH the barrel and then clean the barrel.

[dcloco]

Forgot to add, don't forget, when you are finished, the barrel is SUPER clean. Your accuracy may not be great until the bore is conditioned after two to 100 rounds (not kidding - some military barrels or rough barrels take some shooting to get back in to accuracy).

[hailstone]

Thanks for the information dcloco. Wondered about the accuracy issue after cleaning when I saw all the gunk removed from the barrel. Course not knowing exactly what is happening in the chemical reaction leaves one in the dark about many matters. Not too worried about fire as I monitered the entire operation. Some things come with old age and not leaving some new untried proceedure unattended is one. Talked with an acquantance today who recently graduated from college about what is taking place in the reaction. His thoughts centered on idea the negative electrode being plated with copper. SS cleaning rod had a black coating that I removed with ss scouring pad. Vaguely remember using some chemical too turn copper black years ago into another form of copper. Don't remember if it was an oxide, suflide, sulfate or what of copper though.

[dcloco]

You might have to use higher voltage if using a stainless rod. You would better off with steel. Without getting into the molecular structure discussion of the various flavors of stainless and steel, the steel rod will provide an easier path for the minute amount of current that is allowing the crud to the barrel, instead of removing with the rod.

Of note, you realize this is a wet type battery that you are creating while completing this process? Two dissimilar materials (barrel and rod) with a solution and adding a charging current across.

I would HIGHLY recommend dropping back in voltage and warming the solution prior to connecting the electrical source. (as somebody else mentioned). If using a DC voltage source (6 volt battery), if something bad occurred, then the short would kill the battery withing a minute, stopping the current flow, thereby removing the source of ignition. :)

[chemist1]

Has anyone tried just the mixture of water vinegar and ammonia without anything else?

[Eric in NC]

Has anyone tried just the mixture of water vinegar and ammonia without anything else?


Vinegar and ammonia will neutralize each other (vinegar is an acid, ammonia is a base) so after releasing some bad smells and fumes, you will end up with water.

What are you trying to do there, save a couple of cents?

[hailstone]

Okay now wait one minute. If ammonia and vinegar added together creates water then why are we adding two parts water to one part each of the others. Doesn't make sense adding water to basically water (ammonia and vinegar). I buy into the making a battery concept and the liquid is the electrolyte for this battery. Using the applied current acts like one charging a wet cell battery. If you are making water with the acid and base then the by-product that's brown in color is a form of rust.

[chemist1]

Not at all. I was just looking at the list of products that they used for their cleaning solution and wondered if this might work without the need for a steel rod or any kind of e-chem.

[Don - LongRangeSupply]

Electrolytic copper removal can put some SERIOUS pits in your barrel.....

I no longer use mine and have switched to wipe out. Safer, easier, better overall.

[Ray Gunter]

I built and used a homespun electrolytic copper remover for years.... it worked very well.

Then along came Wipe Out..... I no longer use the electric gizmo..... Wipe Out does it for me.

[Kawabuggy]

DCloco mentioned using silicone to plug the muzzle end---DO NOT do this! The process creates hydrogen gas (small amount) and that gas will develop pressure and will pop out your plug from the breech, or muzzle, end if you were successful at sealing the barrel tight. If the breech plug pops-you'll have a mess in the action/trigger area.

*Leave the muzzle end open so that it can vent the gasses.
*Only use 6 volts or less.
*Use a piece of hose attached to the muzzle end so that you can fill the fluid up to a point a little higher than the actual end of the barrel as some of the fluid will evaporate and you won't clean all of the barrel unless it is all submersed in the solution.
*Wrap a paper towel, or terry towel, around the barrel just below this hose & secure it with rubber bands, or painters tape, in case any fluid escapes. These towels will stop any fluid from getting under the stock, and into the action.
*I use a 50/50 mix of straight ammonia & water
*Use a steel rod-the SS may work, but steel will work better.
*Instead of O-rings, or shrink tubing, simply take a piece of 1/2" painters tape and rap it around the rod a couple times spaced out about 8" or so. Then you can cut the tape off easily with a razor blade when you want to clean the rod. Much easier than hassling with the o-rings.
*Use a foam ear plug pushed into the chamber with a fired piece of brass to seal the chamber area

I can't say for certain that it won't harm a barrel if done incorrectly, but I have yet to experience any problems cleaning in this manner. This is the ONLY way I clean guns anymore. After the electronic cleaning routine, it takes one patch with Hoppes #9 to get any left over gunk out, then one dry patch, then one lightly oiled patch for protection. No need for brushes. No need for scrubbing with a cleaning rod.

[hailstone]

My understanding is this mimics the Outers Foul Out III system of cleaning. Went to there web site and a suprising absence of the device was noted. Didn't look real close but did look over the site. I've read and heard that doing this proceedure too a barrel cleans it down too bare metal. After cleaning it sometimes takes a certain number of fired rounds too refoul the barrel so it shoots decent again similar to when it was first new. Don't know if any of this is true it just may be hearsay.

Suspect a barrel could be damaged if the voltage was high enough and the center electrode got close enough to arc. At the point of arcing would be a spot that is pitted like in arc welding.

After doing this once I now know it would be best too remove the action from the stock due too possible overflow/spillage of the solution. I would also use a longer piece of tubing over the barrel muzzle end along with a plastic tee with the tee part overflowing into a seperate vessel. This would help eliminate part of the mess caused by foaming of the solution under current application. Wrapping the muzzle end in a towel is good idea helping too further eliminate or minimize spillage.

In another thread on this forum there's an individual who had real problems with a rifle fouling with copper from the bullet jackets. Various solvents were mentioned as working the best. I've used many of those solvents and they work so so but not extremely well or very well but just work with lots of time and elbow work. Recently acquired a rifle thats a virtural copper magnet. Three shots and accuracy started going south. Course I wasn't attuned too what was happening and shot a dozen rounds. Needless too say I've been cleaning with different solvents for three days slowly removing the offending copper. Have some KG products coming but will probably have it cleaned by then. Thus my interest in using the electrolysis approach. Any firearm that has this problem with fouling when its new out of the box is not worth owning. Over my lifetime of firearms ownership which is over fifty years I've never had a single firearm do what this new rifle has done. Granted this is a magnum rifle whereas all others have been regular rifles. Still I believe something is not kosher but what it may be is unknown too me.

[drybean]

if anybody is interested i have a 6 vt 300ma charger
5$ for shipping

[Kawabuggy]

Most people will already have a power supply at their house in the form of an old cell phone charger, or a power supply for a cordless phone, or any one of the other various low voltage/watt power supplies. I am using an old cordless phone charger & it works well.. Just don't let the rod short to the barrel as this will kill the power supply the first time it happens.