crushed Vortex scope tube

[yobuck]

The scope i referred to is a Vortex Viper 6x24, purchased from Euro Optic in Montoursville Pa.
Where it was purchased has no bearing, other than they were the ones who had the Vortex rep call me within hours after i had complained to them.
I did not own a torque driver at that point because up to that point, i hadn't needed one.
Now is the fact that we do (sometimes) need them now, due to what we have been doing wrong? or is it due to the (dumbing down) of what we deal with in todays society?

[RandyB]

The scope i referred to is a Vortex Viper 6x24, purchased from Euro Optic in Montoursville Pa.
Where it was purchased has no bearing, other than they were the ones who had the Vortex rep call me within hours after i had complained to them.
I did not own a torque driver at that point because up to that point, i hadn't needed one.
Now is the fact that we do (sometimes) need them now, due to what we have been doing wrong? or is it due to the (dumbing down) of what we deal with in todays society?

I been doing it wrong. I have never seriously considered purchasing a torque wrench for mounting a scope before now. I have never heard of rings crushing a tube. Then after researching today, it's not a new issue. When reading about properly mounting scopes, these are the reasons why it is suggested. The specs aren't unique, most all scope ring and scope manufacturers recommend a specific torque and using a wrench to verify. Those specs for the vast majority are the same.

Perhaps my old Redfield 3-9x40 from the 1990's would have never been crushed, but that's not what I'm dealing with. I've read about the crushing of some pretty expensive scopes today. I'm also about to order a wrench and follow suggestions.

[70oldsracer]

I have always used a torque wrench when mounting scopes. I always followed the ring manufacturers torque spec, mainly because I never had any specific torque specs from the scope manufacturer. Knowing what I know now, from this point on, if there are no torque specs form the scope manufacturer, I will call and ask before I mount any more scopes. I chalk this up to a learning experience and I'm very thankful the scope is warrantied.

[yobuck]

I'm not about to get into any debates over torque wrench use. If a person feels they should be required equiptment fine with me.
As for new quality scopes requiring their use, i cant say, because i haven't installed that many newer scopes.
That said, i wouldn't take it to the bank that price, or even brand name correlates with top quality.
I don't personally think we should need to invest in specialty tools in order to mount a scope.
A proper fit screwdriver is all that really should be needed in my opinion.
And i know for a fact that some very well known gunsmiths install the scopes THEY SELL, just that way.
I guess the bottom line is, we mostly buy what we can afford, or feel is adequate for our use.
And then do what we must in order for the thing to function properly.

[Stumpkiller]

Perhaps my old Redfield 3-9x40 from the 1990's would have never been crushed, but that's not what I'm dealing with. I've read about the crushing of some pretty expensive scopes today. I'm also about to order a wrench and follow suggestions.

In days past (1990's included) the practice was to use steel rings on steel scope tubes. I've never yet crushed a Leupold or even a Weaver with Redfield, Leupold, Sako or Weaver steel rings. Marred the bluing off some, to be sure.

Now aluminum tubes are the norm, but I still prefer steel rings. I don't like steel screws in aluminum threads. Just a personal thing. My 1/4" torque click wrench (Tekton - $35ish) only goes from 20 to 200 in/lbs. Maybe that's why I don't have luck with aluminum rings? But, so far, my scopes don't seem to be effected.

https://www.tekton.com/1-4-in-Drive-Click-Torque-Wrench-20-200-in-lb

I just looked and they also make a 10 to 150 ft/lb wench for $49 (cheaper at distributors) - US made as well.

https://www.tekton.com/1-4-inch-drive-dual-direction-click-torque-wrench-trq21101

[RandyB]

I'm not about to get into any debates over torque wrench use. If a person feels they should be required equiptment fine with me.
As for new quality scopes requiring their use, i cant say, because i haven't installed that many newer scopes.
That said, i wouldn't take it to the bank that price, or even brand name correlates with top quality.
I don't personally think we should need to invest in specialty tools in order to mount a scope.
A proper fit screwdriver is all that really should be needed in my opinion.
And i know for a fact that some very well known gunsmiths install the scopes THEY SELL, just that way.
I guess the bottom line is, we mostly buy what we can afford, or feel is adequate for our use.
And then do what we must in order for the thing to function properly.

I got no problem with a person who can tell the difference in too tight vs tight enough without a torque wrench. I'm not that talented. I just ordered a wrench.

Here's a pretty good read from someone with much more credibility than me, who says that one of the most common scope mounting mistakes is over tightening the rings.
http://www.shootingtimes.com/optics/optics_st_mountingmistakes_200812/

[RandyB]

In days past (1990's included) the practice was to use steel rings on steel scope tubes. I've never yet crushed a Leupold or even a Weaver with Redfield, Leupold, Sako or Weaver steel rings. Marred the bluing off some, to be sure.

Now aluminum tubes are the norm, but I still prefer steel rings. I don't like steel screws in aluminum threads. Just a personal thing. My 1/4" torque click wrench (Tekton - $35ish) only goes from 20 to 200 in/lbs. Maybe that's why I don't have luck with aluminum rings? But, so far, my scopes don't seem to be effected.

https://www.tekton.com/1-4-in-Drive-Click-Torque-Wrench-20-200-in-lb

I just looked and they also make a 10 to 150 ft/lb wench for $49 (cheaper at distributors) - US made as well.

https://www.tekton.com/1-4-inch-drive-dual-direction-click-torque-wrench-trq21101

Cabela's has a well reviewed Wheeler Scope Torque Driver for about $20 cheaper than anywhere else I've seen:
http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=731992&categoryId=0&parentCategoryId=0&subCategoryId=0&indexId=0&itemGUID=d35164e3ac10a05a3cb87c711a1d9eb3

I'm with you on the steel rings. Up until the past 5-10 years, I've never dealt with anything other than that. I just tightened them until the screwdriver started to slip...

[yobuck]

Cabela's has a well reviewed Wheeler Scope Torque Driver for about $20 cheaper than anywhere else I've seen:
http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=731992&categoryId=0&parentCategoryId=0&subCategoryId=0&indexId=0&itemGUID=d35164e3ac10a05a3cb87c711a1d9eb3

I'm with you on the steel rings. Up until the past 5-10 years, I've never dealt with anything other than that. I just tightened them until the screwdriver started to slip...

Or on an occaission or so, until the screw snapped. lol
Funny thing is we worried about that, but never gave much thought to damaging a scope tube.
Prior to about the mid 80s we didn't need worry about screwing up the elevating mechanism and scopes were built like tanks.
Today we do, and look what they've done.
We will be forced to be more tolerant, until were no longer willing to be more tolerant.

[PhilC]

I wish i had that tag on my scope. here is the tag I got on my scope, absolutely no mention of torque spec.
How long ago was your scope purchased? As mentioned previously mine was purchased late Nov. Would be interesting to compare timelines, could well be the tag attached to my scope is the most current. No way for me to know as this was my first Vortex. From yobuck's post it's clear Vortex wasn't putting tags on their scopes 4yrs ago.

[70oldsracer]

How long ago was your scope purchased? As mentioned previously mine was purchased late Nov. Would be interesting to compare timelines, could well be the tag attached to my scope is the most current. No way for me to know as this was my first Vortex. From yobuck's post it's clear Vortex wasn't putting tags on their scopes 4yrs ago.

I bought my scope only a few months ago, probably November too. My receipt is Home, I’ll take a look when I get in and give you an exact date. I just bought another Vortex in the beginning of December and that one had no mention of any torque specs either. It had the exact same tag I already posted. One scope was purchased in person at Dick’s sporting goods and the newer one was purchased online from Cabelas.

[70oldsracer]

Okay, the scope was purchased on 10/13/17.

[stomp442]

Vortex is total junk. If they can't build a scope tube that can handle at least 20 inch pounds of torque you know you are dealing with a sub par product. I have mounted probably upwards of 30 Vortex Viper scopes on clients rifles and I can think of only three or four that have not had to be sent back to Vortex for some type of issue. Mostly tracking and parallax issues. I usually torque them to 17 inch pounds right in the middle of their recommended torque settings and I have had a few come back stating the scope tube was crushed and that I should torque to 15-18 inch pounds. I use the Wheeler wrench and Burris Signature zee rings with the inserts. Over torquing is not the issue. I have gotten to where I hate it when a client brings me a Vortex scope to mount to his rifle, just because I know there is going to be issues. Their crappy products don't make me or my business look good.

[LoneWolf]

4354

[Stumpkiller]

I wonder if a scope has to be installed that delicately what will happen when it falls out of a horse scabbard or gets dropped down a rocky bank trying to cross a creek.

They do get some outdoor use, occasionally.

[yobuck]

Vortex is total junk. If they can't build a scope tube that can handle at least 20 inch pounds of torque you know you are dealing with a sub par product. I have mounted probably upwards of 30 Vortex Viper scopes on clients rifles and I can think of only three or four that have not had to be sent back to Vortex for some type of issue. Mostly tracking and parallax issues. I usually torque them to 17 inch pounds right in the middle of their recommended torque settings and I have had a few come back stating the scope tube was crushed and that I should torque to 15-18 inch pounds. I use the Wheeler wrench and Burris Signature zee rings with the inserts. Over torquing is not the issue. I have gotten to where I hate it when a client brings me a Vortex scope to mount to his rifle, just because I know there is going to be issues. Their crappy products don't make me or my business look good.



I can certainly sympathize with someone in your position.
But after reading these comments, it dosent appear the issue is only related to Vortex.
Our situation might be a bit unique in that the scope was installed on a 338x378 rifle.
It wouldn't perform as required on that gun because of the thin tube and the torque requirments.
However, i tried an 8.5x25 Leupold i had bought used for about the same price and had no issues.
Now is the Leupold a better scope? Maybe not, but i really don't care either.
The gun belongs to my son and he has since installed a Nightforce on it.
The Vortex is still around and will be used on something, probably a 6x284 used for prairie dogs.
Buying a scope is about the same as buying a pickup truck.
If your gonna be using it for driving to work, and towing a small boat, then what you buy wont matter much.
And that probably speaks for most pickup owners.
But if your gonna be using it for heavy work, then it matters a lot.

[stomp442]

if only my problems could be narrowed down to heavy recoil. I have had them fail on everything from 22-250 to .300 win mag. They probably work great for the people that want a high power scope with hold over points and zero their rifle once and call it good. But if you use the scope as intended and dial to shoot and return to zero. Forget it. I know there are guys out there that love them but the first thing anyone says about Vortex even their fan boys is "The VIP Warranty is awesome!" which I will agree is true but I would rather not have to say that. I know that there are bad apples with all companies and I have sent scopes back from other manufacturers as well but it happens with Vortex much more often.

[LoneWolf]

I had a Gen1 Razor HD and a Gen2 Razor HD, both used heavily in PRS competition, Range trips, Desert Trips, Cross-Country Trips, and I never had to send either back to utilize the warranty. Many countless amounts of friends also use the Razor Gen1 and Gen2's without any issues. They are high end well built scopes. The Gen2 PST is a huge improvement over the Gen 1 PST. Anything below the PST level is all I really hear these issues coming from. The high end Razor line in no less fallible than the other high end brands. There are a lot more of them on the street though at least in the group I see.

That being said even after a fall off a barricade and a direct hit to the top turret on my Bushnell XRS2 it still hasn't shown any signs of weakness yet. But I don't have Thousands of round of experience with it yet like I did on my Razors. We'll know for sure though after the 2018 season.

[stomp442]

The Razors are nice well-built optics for sure, but like you say they are high end. It's a shame none of that quality trickles down into the other line of optics. I have mounted numerous other brands at a similar price and feature point as that of the Vortex and had very little if any issues. Heck, I've mounted Chinese Tascos that have held up better than the Vipers.

[steve101610]

Properly lapped and torqued ring won't crush a scope tube. If the rings are crushing a scope tube it's because the rings are not perfectly in line with each other. This will cause "high spots" in the rings. I try to get at least 80% or more contact with the rings.


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[70oldsracer]

Properly lapped and torqued ring won't crush a scope tube. If the rings are crushing a scope tube it's because the rings are not perfectly in line with each other. This will cause "high spots" in the rings. I try to get at least 80% or more contact with the rings.



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Although I appreciate the response, I don't not agree with observation. Warne states right on their website that it is not necessary to lap their rings. I have never had an issue with a set of Warne scope rings crushing a scope tube before. Q: Do I need to Lap my new Warne scope rings?

A: No, you do not need to lap our scope rings, they are manufactured in such a way that when properly installed, they grasp onto the scope and hold it securely w/o damaging the scope tube or finish. If the scope rings appear to be out of alignment with each other, a more serious problem may be present and will need to be addressed, lapping would not improve that issue.