Model 10 Predator Hunter in .243 First Range Report

[John Model 10]

Well, I was going to wait to get a decent scope before shooting this rifle, but my curiosity got the best of me. So, I swiped a scope from my wife's rifle to test her (the rifle, not my wife). ;D It's a cheap BSA scope, but it served it's purpose.

All shooting was done with five shot groups at 100 yards, fired from a Caldwell Rock Jr. Front rest and a rear bag. I wouldn't say that any of my handloads shot poorly, but some were certainly better than others. For the last two days, I've been playing with various loads, using three different bullets and two different powders (Varget and H4895). The bullets are the Sierra 80g BTSP, Hornady 87g V-Max and 100g Interlock BTSP. So far, the V-Max and 100g Interlock are the most accurate, but the 100g Interlock seems to like to be pushed faster than I should be loading it to. I'll keep playing with it some more. I'm sure I can find a lighter loading that will tighten it up, with some experimentation. Here's some of the highlights:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/mywifehatesmodels/Savage%20Model%2010%20Predator%20Hunter%20243%20Wi nchester/SavageModel10PredatorHunter243005.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/mywifehatesmodels/Savage%20Model%2010%20Predator%20Hunter%20243%20Wi nchester/SavageModel10PredatorHunter243001.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/mywifehatesmodels/Savage%20Model%2010%20Predator%20Hunter%20243%20Wi nchester/SavageModel10PredatorHunter243003.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/mywifehatesmodels/Savage%20Model%2010%20Predator%20Hunter%20243%20Wi nchester/SavageModel10PredatorHunter243007.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/mywifehatesmodels/Savage%20Model%2010%20Predator%20Hunter%20243%20Wi nchester/SavageModel10PredatorHunter243002.jpg

The trigger came set very light on this rifle. This is probably the cause of some of my flyers. Normally, I would leave it, but since I will likely be hunting with it, while wearing gloves, I will most likely adjust it a little heavier. Overall, it seems to shoot better than I do, so far. I can't wait to get some good glass and some more trigger/load development time.

The painted Accustock is very solid and the paint appears to be pretty durable. The action is well centered in the stock. The finish on the barreled action is tough and not as shiny as I feared it would be. I love the medium weight, fluted barrel and the bolt seems to be just a touch tighter in tolerance than my 10FP. While it's a little heavier than your average sporter (I believe the specs say 8.5 lbs, but I haven't weighed it), this doesn't really bother me, as I'm used to hauling around guns that are 12-15 lbs. Even with the weight, it seems to point nicely and I don't think that offhand shots would be a real issue.

The only real issue, so far, is the chamber/freebore. I guess that depends on your preference, though. I had posted another thread asking about this, the other day. It seems that the handloads that I loaded to the spec length of 2.710" are just touching the lands. One of them, the 80g Sierra SP, actually sets back into the case upon chambering the round. A call to Savage revealed that they are using factory ammo as their spec, which would normally be loaded to a shorter length. Since I wanted to get another opinion on this, I called my local gunsmith. He builds custom rifles (sometimes from scratch), his own calibers and is also a BR competition shooter. He told me that "A lot of guys would love to have your 'problem' ". After discussing the details of it, I felt a lot better. So long as I'm aware of the measurements and am careful with my loads, there shouldn't be any issues. So far, I'm loving it and would not change a thing. ;D

John

[lucy123]

Now that is some fine shooting. Good looking rifle.

[chadster73]

John, thanks for the post and pics... I've been waiting to hear from the folks on the Model 10 predator in Max-1. That will probably be my next rifle! Love the way that baby looks! Real sharp! Don't forget to post anymore updates...

[Nefarioud]

Very nice

[John Model 10]

Thanks for all the positive comments.

I'll be sure to post more info, as it comes. At this point, I'm itching to get a good scope on it and see what it will do at 300+.

Thanks again,

John

[wahoowad]

Out-frigging-standing shooting my friend! I just bought the exact same rifle and wish I could say I was anywhere near close to your results. I am shooting factory loads, 100 gr. Remington and 58 gr. Hornady V-Max. Hopefully my issues are scope related and it is currently in route back to the manufacturer for a check. Your results give me hope for mine. Maybe I need a cheaper scope! ;D

Look familiar? ;D

http://www.earlysvilleironworks.com/link/predfirsthog.jpg

[John Model 10]

That looks like a well placed shot, so it must not be too bad? ;)

With the 9.25" twist, maybe a more "intermediate" weight bullet would fair better? I'm anxious to see what they tell you, as well as your future results.

Thanks!

John

[wahoowad]

I wish I could say that was a long range shot (which is why I bought the gun) but I think it was somewhere between 75 and 100 yards max. Still, felt good to connect and not miss on my first shot! 10 minutes prior I had completed my initial scope sight in so knew I was within an inch or two of zero so felt comfortable taking the shot. That is only the entrance hole ;D

My follow-on visit to the target range is where I started getting some erratic shot placement. In addition to the factory Hornady 58 gr. V-max I also have a few boxes of the HSM 75 gr. V-max loads. I hate to burn up this good ammo playing around with the scope but I'm somewhat suspicious of the 100 gr. Remington Core-lokt stuff I was initially using. I know it is cheap stuff and was worried the 9.25 barrell twist may not have been ding so well with that weight bullet. I don't know. Sure wish my gun was ready to take groundhog shooting tomorrow and hitting like your's is.

Please keep posting - I'm looking forward to learning more about the gun from your experiences. I also have a light trigger, too light in my book. But didn't want to get into opening up the accustock to adjust it quite yet as I've read mixed reviews about how R&R the accustock can introduce some variability if not done exactly right.

[John Model 10]

wahoowad,

I hope your issues are something simple. I would rather have it be the scope than the gun, if that's the case. Nothing more frustrating than having a new gun and something holding it back. I'm also hesitating to mess with my trigger, yet. I don't have a torque driver, so I think I may wait, or just fix the trigger and take it to my smith to put it back in the stock. It should only take a minute. If this were a bench rifle, I would just leave it alone, though. It's pretty nice off the bench.

I did some more shooting this morning, just concentrating on the 87 grain V-Max. My chronograph was giving me trouble yesterday, so I wanted to try again with different lighting and see if I could get some consistent numbers and find a "pet" loading for this bullet. I think I found it. Actually, two of them, using different powders. Since powders go back and forth in availability around here, it's nice to have a backup, in case I can't get ahold of one of them.

The first load was with 36.0 grains of Varget and the bullet seated to 2.710" in a once fired, neck sized Winchester case. This length is just touching the lands on my rifle. Recoil and pressure were well within the acceptable range. Here's a pic and the chrono data for the five shot group, from 100 yards, with the Chrony 10 feet from the muzzle ( I should probably post this in the reloading forum, too):

87 grain V-Max over 36.0 grains of Varget
Low: 3004
High: 3046
Avg: 3024
ES: 42.35
SD: 17.32
Group was .463", center to center. It printed a little low and to the right, as this scope's turrets turn much too easily and I saw that I had bumped them off of zero.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/mywifehatesmodels/Savage%20Model%2010%20Predator%20Hunter%20243%20Wi nchester/SavageModel10PredatorHunter243008.jpg



The next group was with H4895. Coincidentally, it is also 36.0 grains and was loaded into a neck sized, once fired Win. case, as well. The first shot was the lowest one and fired to check point of impact. After that, I adjusted the scope and fired five more rounds. One was a low flyer and stretched the group out to .681". The other four all fell into one hole that was created by the first two of the four and measures only .179", center to center! :o NOW WE'RE TALKIN'! Truthfully, I probably couldn't duplicate it, if my life depended on it. :D

87 grain V-Max over 36.0 grains of H4895
Low: 3100
High: 3149
Avg: 3131
ES: 49.21
SD: 17.26
Recoil and pressure were what I would call "medium high" with this load.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/mywifehatesmodels/Savage%20Model%2010%20Predator%20Hunter%20243%20Wi nchester/SavageModel10PredatorHunter243009.jpg

I would like to do some more work on the soft points, but I'm running low on materials. I'll probably load up what I have in the V-Max and save them for later, when I have a better scope and can shoot at some longer ranges. The weather's starting to get colder and it's only a matter of time before I can get some coyotes in my scope. :)

Thanks,

John

[wahoowad]

Those are sick groups! Maybe I am better off if I hadn't seen em! ;)

[Elkbane]

John,
Those are great groups. One note on the vertical, though - just touching the lands is probably the worst place you can be. With a little variation in bullet dimensions (there's more of that than you think in any box, just measure a few), and you're slight jam on some and off lands on others. You might try loading them 5 thousands shorter and see if it takes the vertical out of your groups. My guess is that's what's causing the few flyers too. My rule is either jammed or not jammed, but nothing "just touching".....


If you do try jamming them, back off on the charge and work up to max again just to be safe.
Elkbane

[wahoowad]

HI. What is meant by hitting the lands? Does that mean the nose of the bullet is hitting the feed ramp as it leaves the magazine?

[Elkbane]

Has nothing to do with the tip. Look at the shape of a bullet in profile. Going from tip to base, you have a curved section, then the side flattens out at the point where the OD of the bullet (like.243 in this instance) is equal to the caliber; i.e. the maximum diameter. This point is called the bullet "ogive". When the bullet is loaded long enough to where that point engages the lands in the barrrel, that's called "jamming" the bullet into the lands. If it's not touching the lands it's called "jump", or the distance to lands. So when you hear someone talk about jamming or jumping bullets, tht's what they are talking about - the ogive length relative to the lands.
It's common to have the tip extend well into the grooved part of the barrel, it's just when you jam the bullet into the lands that you have a potential pressure issue. Think about you car parked hard against a curb. You have to give it more gas to jump the curb than you do if you started 3 feet back.......
Elkbane

[Eric in NC]

John,
Those are great groups. One note on the vertical, though - just touching the lands is probably the worst place you can be. With a little variation in bullet dimensions (there's more of that than you think in any box, just measure a few), and you're slight jam on some and off lands on others. You might try loading them 5 thousands shorter and see if it takes the vertical out of your groups. My guess is that's what's causing the few flyers too. My rule is either jammed or not jammed, but nothing "just touching".....


If you do try jamming them, back off on the charge and work up to max again just to be safe.
Elkbane


+1 - either in them or off them for me too.

[John Model 10]

Thanks for the kind words, everyone.

Elkbane, you are absolutely correct. Now that I have a base to work from, I will be experimenting with OAL some more and will definitely be taking that into consideration.

Thanks!

John

[John Model 10]

Not wanting to leave well enough alone (Thanks, Elkbane! ;D), I did some more testing with this V-Max base load and came to some conclusions. First of all, I focused on the H4895 load, since it's giving more pressure and velocity than the Varget load. I tried "Jamming" the OAL by various amounts and found that the vertical stringing actually got worse. Also, the pressure seemed to increase, which kind of surprised me, but it makes sense, since the bullet is already into the lands and meeting resistance from the start.

On the flip side, I tried a couple different loads, jumping the bullet to the lands. The first was just a few thousandths off (btw, I determined that the point where the bullet touches the lands is actually 2.708) and the stringing didn't improve over the initial test loads. Not bad, but not improved, either. The next step was to take them down to a full ten thousandths off the lands. This improved things greatly. I didn't see any evidence of stringing and shot groups that were .400". So, my conclusion is (just as Elkbane suspected), that jumping the bullet a little seems to improve the groups. It should also be noted that, while the pressure did increase slightly with the shorter OAL, it was actually still less than when the bullet was seated further into the lands. I realize that, at some point, this would reverse, but where it sits now seems to work and there are no overpressure issues.

Thanks again!

John

[dirtymax]

John I am new to this on line forum thing so every body will have to bear with me. I joined five min. ago because your on that new fine ***
gun you have. I also reload for my 243 sav and I have tried quit a few powders an bullet combos for my 243 and rl17 seems to shoot any and every bullet I put in front of it light or heavy. imr 4350 is my second choice! I bought the rl17 for my custom 300 wsm sav that i built but I was not impressed with it in that gun an I thought hey lets see how it does with my 243 an oh hell yea. I did a ladder test starting at 3 gains under max an started loading up in .3 of a grain until I hit max and every load shot inside 1" at 100 I was sold I am not at home now to give the exact load an all that I am shooting but it gives me a very low es if I remember right I am using win primers or the cci 200 the right primer did help becuse I changed the primers an my group opened up alittle an my es started to open also. I hope this might help oh I used H4895 also it did decent 1moa but when I went to 2 & 3hundred it opened up like 6" string some of what I seen on your shots with the rl17 I can consistantly 1/2 and 3/4 5 shot groups at 200 yards. Sorry for rambling but I just had to share that load info hope it helps. OH .005 to .010 of the lands was best with all the bullets I used

[Harriershot]

Wahoowad, my model 14 in .243 shoots the 70 gr. Nosler ballistic tip in the Federal Premium Vital Shock offering the best. It also shoots the 85 gr. Sierra Gameking boat tail hollow point in the Federal Premium Vital Shock offering very well. I can shoot both of these on a good day, three shot groups half MOA.

Charlie