110 BA - 300 gr. Bergers?

[Honcho]

Any one shooting these yet? Just got my order in and looking to see if anyone else has been down this road already that might offer some friendly advice.

[sparky123321]

I've shot the 300 gr Berger's and the 300 gr Sierra's in my Remington 700 338 Lapua. I can't say I have the load tuned in exactly where I want it yet, but I think the Berger's are more accurate in my rifle. Then again, I've always found Berger's to be the most accurate bullet available as long as you have a fast enough twist and seat them into the lands. I can't used the magazine with the Berger's seated 0.010" into the lands, but that's fine with me. I perfer accuracy over capacity. I've been using 90.0-92.0 grains of H1000 powder, Remington 9 1/2 M magnum primers and Hornady brass(2700 fps). I swapped out the stock muzzle brake for a JP Recoil Eliminator and the difference was night and day. It's recoil is now like that of a medium to heavy weight .243 Win. The recoil is less than my 20+ lb .284 WIN HBR rifle. It wasn't a lot of fun to shoot before I swapped out the muzzle brake. Best $100 bucks I've spent in a long time. Good luck and please feel free to share any good loads you work up.

[Nefarioud]

I was going to buy some then read the following, not sure what the deal is, I just figured I'd stay with the 300 SMK until Hornady builds something. I'm sure they're fine, the bulletin just caused me pause. The information below is not mine, I copied from another site and I've seen it at least three or four places:

Berger Bullets Update Regarding the .338 Hybrids
As expected, the release of the new 300 grain .338 Hybrid bullets has made quite a splash. The purpose of this bulletin is to share some facts that have been learned about this bullet since its release. There are two major facts that I’ll elaborate on.
1) The BC of the bullet is being revised, and
2) The bullet has limitations regarding its structural integrity.
Revised BC Assessment
For unknown reasons, the original BC test produced results that were not repeatable for this bullet. Upon releasing these bullets to the public, we started to hear that trajectories predicted with the advertised BC’s were not matching the observed drop. We took this feedback seriously, and performed several more careful BC tests. The results of each of these tests have produced a repeatable BC, but it’s lower than the original value by about 7%.
The revised BC’s for the 300 grain .338 Hybrid are:
G7 BC = 0.419
G1 BC = 0.818
The above BC’s have been measured in multiple tests in multiple barrels, and produce calculated trajectories that match the observations of some credible shooters.
We’re grateful for the feedback of the shooters who brought this matter to our attention and allowed us to correct the inaccurate information. Greater care will be taken with future tests in an effort to prevent this from happening again.

Limitations to the Bullet’s Structural Integrity
Another thing that happened when we released these bullets to the public is that they were fired in cartridges that are more energetic than the .338 Edge which I used for the initial evaluations. Upon exposure to the extreme pressures and accelerations produced by some of the larger cartridges, some negative results were observed; poor groups, and lower observed BC (even lower than the revised values above). Our current working theory is that the poor precision and reduced BC are a result of nose slump. Nose slump is when the bullet is accelerated so fast that the base of the nose can’t support its own weight, and bulges out to fill the barrel. This produces a bullet with a longer bearing surface and a shorter nose which explains the compromised BC. Since this deformation doesn’t occur exactly the same every time, poor precision also results.
The exact threshold of pressure/acceleration that will cause nose slump with this bullet is not known. There are a number of small to medium capacity cartridges that shoot these bullets very well, with extremely good precision and a repeatable BC. So far there have been no reported cases of nose slump with cartridges in the following class: .338 Winchester Mag, .338 Norma Mag, .338 RUM, and .338 Edge, etc.

The .338 Lapua Mag seems to be a borderline case which may or may not produce nose slump. Factors that affect pressure/acceleration will affect the likeliness of nose slump occurring. For example, ball powders are typically faster burning than stick powders, so they produce higher peak pressures, and are more likely to produce nose slump. Tighter bores can also cause elevated pressures and tip the scales toward nose slump.
Cartridges like the .338 Lapua Mag Improved and larger are virtually assured of producing nose slump when loaded to their potential pressures.
If you’re working up a load with these bullets and having difficulty finding a precise load, it’s likely that you’re exceeding the pressure threshold where nose slump happens. In small to medium cartridges, the hybrid ogive design makes it quite easy to find an accurate load. The bullet is quite insensitive to seating depth. If you’re working with a large capacity case and having poor results, you should consider reducing the powder charge until good groups are achieved.

When designing a bullet for use in hunting applications, the toughness of the bullet is always a trade-off. Terminally, you want a bullet that is capable of reliable expansion/fragmentation at low impact velocities. However, the bullet can’t be so thin-skinned that it doesn’t survive being launched at very high speeds. This being our first time working with a bullet this large, a construction was selected which we felt would strike the best balance between toughness and terminal performance. Simply put, we erred too much on the side of terminal performance. The result is a bullet that’s perfectly suited for small to medium capacity cases, but simply isn’t tough enough to survive being fired from the more energetic magnums.
The good news is that the situation has been identified and several solutions are already being worked on. We know the design needs to be ‘toughened up’ for successful use in larger cartridges, and we’re considering the best way to do this.

In Summary
The Berger .338 caliber 300 grain Hybrid bullet is still the highest BC bullet in its class. The performance gap just isn’t as big as originally thought.
In its current form, the bullet is perfectly suitable for many popular small to medium capacity cartridges. From my .338 Edge test rifle, I’ve shot multiple 10 shot groups at 1000 yards under 10" and the bullets performed with a very repeatable BC. For the time being, those with larger capacity cartridges will have to wait for the bullet to be toughened up in order to achieve good performance. We don’t have an anticipated timeline for this revision, but it is a top priority.
On a personal note I want to express my gratitude for the shooters who’ve provided the critical feedback which helped us to understand the situation enough to take action. Having an open dialogue and exchange of information is the best way to insure we’re doing everything we can to make the best bullets possible.

[bodywerks]

Regardless of the bulletin from Berger, they still have a WAY higher BC than anything else commercially available that isn't a lathe-turned solid. And as far as the velocity limitations are concerned, they are of little consequence to us, because we will never see 2800fps out of our rifles, nor does the lapua really have the capacity to accelerate the bullet quickly enough to cause the nose to cave in on itself.
They also claim that this 'dual ogive' design makes the bullet insensitive to the amount of bullet jump you have. However, to load these to mag length in my 110ba would mean like a. 060" jump. That's just too much for my liking...
These bergers are all I have used but I have yet to find a really accurate load, as I have been battling heavy bolt lift and extraction problems up until recently(switched from hornady to lapua brass recently and that fixed it). The closest I got to an accurate load was 88 grains of retumbo in the hornady brass and cci primers. Shot about a 1" group but the velocity was way down at only about 2520fps. I'm looking for an accurate load at about 2650-2700, as that is what it'll take to get to a mile. I'm thinking it'll take 93-94 grains of the retumbo and seating the bergers into the lands...

[Honcho]

I was shoot 300 gr mks before the Berger's came in. I played with RL-25, RL-22, and Retumbo. The Retumbo was giving me a sticky bolt all the way down at 89.0 grs. RL-25 was real inconsistant "5 inch groups at 100 yards" RL-22 i got 5 shot one holer's 80.2 grs. I've been wanting to try the Berger's to see if there is any noteable difference. Had an AR-30 before the Savage and it loved RL-25. Measured the throat over the weekend and im looking at about .080" jump when seated a mag length. I will try to get to the range sometime this week and try RL-22 with these bullets. I let everyone know my results.

[Nefarioud]

Sometimes it's not all about BC. If you're experiencing "nose slump" you may not get the thing dialed to your liking. You should get some SMK's and see if you can get those to group to your liking. I'm not saying the Bergers don't work, it just seems that they basically admitted that they weren't up to handling the rigors of the 338L.

Before there was an issue of too little velocity which means you'll need to push the bullets harder and could make things worse, I'm just sayin..

[bigjet]

I've finally got something of a decent load for the 110BA LM.

Lapua Brass
300 SMKs
Winchester LRM primers
91.5 gr VV N570
~2675 fps
2.837" to the ogive, which is about a 0.018 jump in my chamber.

Nicely grouping at 100 yards....less than 1/2".

Haven't tried the Bergers or the Scenars yet.

Can't kick about the short range...going long next trip to the range.

Chip

http://i54.tinypic.com/4r9pgk.jpg

[Honcho]

Good shooting bigjet!

[bodywerks]

Nefarious, I know its not all about BC but the smks don't have what it takes to make a mile. Regardless, I got 100 rounds of smks because the bergers are going to start becoming harder to come by as they start revamping them. And after that fact, any loads I work up now will be useless then. I think I will try some lathe-turned solids for reaching out for now, and work up an smk and scenar load for the sub-mile shooting...

[Nefarioud]

smks don't have what it takes to make a mile.


They went 1600yards pretty reliably, in fact, I went back yesterday to verify a scope setting at a shorter range and, just for kicks, dialed in what I had written down for the 1600 to see if it held and got a cold bore hit on the 1600 yard gong.

I imagine with some load development to find a little more speed, the extra 160 yards is doable. But that's up here (5300ASL) . Down there you'll have a balancing act with temp restrictions on the load versus less restricted flight through warm thinner air, but I still think they'll make it.

[bigngreen]

I shoot with a couple guys every once in a while that shoot the 300 Berger in the 338 Lapua with unbelievable results, if you don't launch them hard with to fast of a powder you can run them up there without nose slump. They should perform better on game than the SMK, they have been more accurate than the SMK for the guys I shoot with. From what I've heard Berger will add a more rugged 300gr bullet in addition to the current one which is working very well in Lapua and RUM's.
Hopefully I'll have a 338 Norma to try them with this summer!

[bodywerks]

Any idea what powder they were using and the velocities achieved? This whole ' work up a load for my 338LM is gonna get expensive in a hurry, lol! But at least its fun...

[bigngreen]

91.5 gr of H1000 running 2785ish. Accuracy is awesome, seen some 1400yrd groups that you could pass for 600yrd groups and you would be happy.

[Nefarioud]

Bigngreen,

What barrel length are they using?

[bigjet]

When I found out about the nose slump I returned 100 of the Berger hybrids. At the time I thought I'd be able to get more muzzle velocity out of the 110BA, so the slump concerned me. Might have been a mistake, but Berger promised to send the new projectiles as soon as they're available, and regardless of the slump issue, the new ones will have a better boattail, and a better BC. I didn't get a refund, just a promise for the new rounds as soon as they're released.

I'm really happy to hear that the long-range shooting is working out well with the hybrids. I did measure the bearing surfaces on the Bergers when I had them, and found them to be less consistent than the Sierras. Apparently that's not a big deal if the results show super accuracy.

So far I'm happy with the SMKs I've been using, but will surely explore the Bergers and even the Scenars down the road. Just need to spring for some more Lapua brass.

Saw that the loads you mentioned were using H1000. Got it, but haven't tried it yet. Just the N570. I'm also using Winchester LRM primers...do you know what was used with the H1000 and the Bergers?

All in all, I think the 110BA in LM is quite a rifle, regardless of the price on it. I'd bet the accuracy limitation will be the shooter, not the rifle. It's a great rifle.

Cheers

[bigngreen]

I believe they are 28in barrels but I've never really asked and I believe he's .010 or 015 of the lands. The Bergers they measured were more consistent in bearing surface than the SMK's which they have to sort. I read one report by Shawn Carlock that the ES of the SMK was .019 and the Berger was .006, I know in the smaller cals I shoot I quit sorting the Bergers.
We shoot them for hunting so it will be exciting to see what they do on game vs the SMK, should lay the smack down on them!!

[lgregor]

Sparky - Have you had any bolt lift/stiffness issues with your 90-92g of H1000 using Hornady Brass? I have actually pulled all my test loads over 89.5g because of many folks stating that there are bolt lift/sticking problems with the Hornady brass around and above 90g.

Please let me know your experiences with the Savage 110BA and the H1000 & Hornady Brass w/ 300g rounds. If others here are seeing it then I guess I made the right choice to pull the rest. If not then perhaps I will make them up again 90.0-91.5g and give it a try.


Thanks -