Powder to replace H4350

[Newt]

I'm looking to switch to a different powder because we all know H4350 is hard to get. Just wandering what other people are using and having good results with. Really thinking about Varget then I can use it in my 6.5CR and my 308 Any thoughts on this. Thanks.


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[MRCHIRO]

RL-17. For my 308 shooting 208gr loaded to the hilt (3.00 coal).


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[rjtfroggy]

IMR 4895 in everything I shoot, 22 Hornet up to 7mm rem. May not be the fastest or the cleanest but every shot goes where I am aiming.

[psharon97]

IMR 4166 burns very close to H4350, produces great groups, but doesn't net the same velocity out of my 260 as H4350. I have good luck at gun shows for H4350. The price is cheaper than what I can buy off the internet due to hazmat fees. I remember not too long ago, varget was the powder to get and extremely tough to find, now H4350 is tough and varget is plentiful.

[MRCHIRO]

That's why we should buy in bulk and lots of it. Buy in a group and share the hazmat fee.


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[Rob01]

IMR 4166 burns very close to H4350, produces great groups, but doesn't net the same velocity out of my 260 as H4350. I have good luck at gun shows for H4350. The price is cheaper than what I can buy off the internet due to hazmat fees. I remember not too long ago, varget was the powder to get and extremely tough to find, now H4350 is tough and varget is plentiful.

I think you are confusing 4166 and 4451. 4166 is a faster burning powder in the 4064 burn rate. That is why you weren't getting the velocity. IMR4451 is very close to H4350 for burn rate and will give very close performance as well.

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/burnratecolor.pdf

[psharon97]

I think you are confusing 4166 and 4451. 4166 is a faster burning powder in the 4064 burn rate. That is why you weren't getting the velocity. IMR4451 is very close to H4350 for burn rate and will give very close performance as well.

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/burnratecolor.pdf

You're probably right. I'll confirm which powder tomorrow when I get to the shop. I always get those 2 mixed up.

[MRCHIRO]

You're probably right. I'll confirm which powder tomorrow when I get to the shop. I always get those 2 mixed up.

What shop??? Gun shop? Hook us up with power powder brother!


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[Deadshot2]

Three powders I have recently found give me the same speed and accuracy as H-4350 (in my rifle using 140-147 gr bullets) are IMR-4451, RL-16, and Superformance. I purposely worked with different powders over the last few weeks just to be able to have alternatives.

I did some testing with RL-17 but found it to be temperature sensitive, even to the point of showing pressure sign if the cartridge was left too long int he chamber on a hot day after shooting a few rounds. Not so with the RL-16. For cooler weather I could use the RL-17 so you might say I have 4-1/2 alternative powders to the H-4350.

A personal note: H-4350 has been around for a long time and the IMR-4451, RL-16, and Superformance powders are all relatively new. New often means more refinement and improved properties. We as hand loaders perhaps need to work with those powders to utilize their "new" properties and not hang so firmly onto the powders of old. Not that they don't perform but sometimes the "new" does a little better.

I see some shooters who will try a new powder, shooting maybe a dozen or so rounds, then announce "this stuff's no good". Others will take their time to work up a load and fine tune it, finding that they get even better performance. Sometimes with added benefits like a little more speed, less copper fouling, and easier cleaning.

[Newt]

Three powders I have recently found give me the same speed and accuracy as H-4350 (in my rifle using 140-147 gr bullets) are IMR-4451, RL-16, and Superformance. I purposely worked with different powders over the last few weeks just to be able to have alternatives.

I did some testing with RL-17 but found it to be temperature sensitive, even to the point of showing pressure sign if the cartridge was left too long int he chamber on a hot day after shooting a few rounds. Not so with the RL-16. For cooler weather I could use the RL-17 so you might say I have 4-1/2 alternative powders to the H-4350.

A personal note: H-4350 has been around for a long time and the IMR-4451, RL-16, and Superformance powders are all relatively new. New often means more refinement and improved properties. We as hand loaders perhaps need to work with those powders to utilize their "new" properties and not hang so firmly onto the powders of old. Not that they don't perform but sometimes the "new" does a little better.

I see some shooters who will try a new powder, shooting maybe a dozen or so rounds, then announce "this stuff's no good". Others will take their time to work up a load and fine tune it, finding that they get even better performance. Sometimes with added benefits like a little more speed, less copper fouling, and easier cleaning.

I actually like Superformance myself. Flows nice threw the thrower. I used it some. But not enough to know much about it.


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[Deadshot2]

I actually like Superformance myself. Flows nice threw the thrower. I used it some. But not enough to know much about it.


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Being a Ball Powder I'm just wondering how it will work over the different seasons. I live in a somewhat moderate area so I rarely shoot in temps less than 20 degrees or much over 80. I do tend to shoot a lot in a session so chamber temps can be somewhat warm so there's where I want the temperature insensitivity.

As for flowing through the measure, you are dead on. Like measuring water.

I actually see this powder as a good choice for "bulk loading" using my Dillon XL-650. That's always been the bugaboo with the progressive, getting uniform powder drops. Superformance may well solve that issue enough to yield some fairly accurate ammo from the progressive. At least good enough to make steel plates go "Pa-Ting".

[psharon97]

What shop??? Gun shop? Hook us up with power powder brother!


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haha lol naw a workshop. I've had decent luck with powder going to gun shows. That comment made my day brother!! ;)

[Charlie98]

I've got a can of 4451 upstairs, since I couldn't find any 4350... I haven't run it over a chrono yet, but it seems to work well so far. I figured eventually they are going to phase out the older powders for the new and improved (Enduron) powders, so I might as well start working that way.

[Deadshot2]

haha lol naw a workshop. I've had decent luck with powder going to gun shows. That comment made my day brother!! ;)

Some people have all the luck:confused:

For some stupid reason the gun shows here where I live prohibit the sale of powder/primers at the shows. You can purchase ammo by the tons but not a granule of powder.

It seems to have it's roots in some prohibition by the venues and/or the state fire marshal.


As for "private sales", I'm a little leery. Powder manufacturers don't really have tamper resistant seals that are all that tamper resistant. Based on some of the bottles I've received in unopened cases it isn't hat hard to open up a pound and remove a small amount. Then close the cap which returns the seal to it's previously flimsy position. I just buy if from reputable retail outlets or from known online sources. When I do find something I can use I buy as much as I can afford at that time. I'm not one of these "I'll buy a couple of pounds and pick up more as I need it" guys. We know how that works out after about 10 years of feat/famine.

[darkker]

Being a Ball Powder I'm just wondering how it will work over the different seasons. I live in a somewhat moderate area so I rarely shoot in temps less than 20 degrees or much over 80. I do tend to shoot a lot in a session so chamber temps can be somewhat warm so there's where I want the temperature insensitivity.

As for flowing through the measure, you are dead on. Like measuring water.

I actually see this powder as a good choice for "bulk loading" using my Dillon XL-650. That's always been the bugaboo with the progressive, getting uniform powder drops. Superformance may well solve that issue enough to yield some fairly accurate ammo from the progressive. At least good enough to make steel plates go "Pa-Ting".

So despite Hodgdon's marketing machine cranking out....Questionable information, simply being a ball powder doesn't tell you anything about sensitivity; it's about tech date.
We have done lots of temp testing and "cook-off" testing with the Pressure Trace system in the Creedmoor. Remember there isn't a powder that is just universally insensitive, it is ALWAYS about application. In the Creed, RL-17 is easily every bit as stable as H4350, if not more so; same can be said of Superformance. The deal with RL-17 & Supr is how they burn, and can confuse you if you only rely on "Signs", or watch velocity as a linear trend line. H4350 when used within it's happy pressure range burns very linearly, as do most powders you know of. RL-17 is somewhat progressive burning powder, meaning that the burning curve changes with pressure being run; and Supr is VERY progressive. I don't have my Photobucket log-in on me to post pics, but to try and give you a mental visual between the two types:

Regular powders ignite and immediately spike to max pressure, then very quickly drop-off. Any burning speed powder does this, the only change is in the total pressure being run.
Progressive burning powders spike up but then plateau off, so think of a mesa or a butte. Because they don't spike and drop immediately, they change burning speed and can "push" with high sustained pressure for much longer than a non-progressive powder.

The progressives aren't just a linear deal like the classic powders, so how much of a plateau Vs. peak there is can really change depending upon the operating pressure. I've posted these graphs before, but in the Creed I can drop 10,000 psi but only lose 50-ish fps from max velocity when using Superformance. The trouble is if you can't see the burning curve, meaning only watching velocity or staring at brass as some absolute pressure indicator. Remember the 10% lot variation warnings, they are VERY real; I've pressure tested a few things that had more than 10% difference between lots. Extruded powder has it's burning rates controlled by geometry(volume) and ball powder is by coatings.

As far as powders, with the lighter bullets URP is very stable.

[rckendall]

So despite Hodgdon's marketing machine cranking out....Questionable information, simply being a ball powder doesn't tell you anything about sensitivity; it's about tech date.
We have done lots of temp testing and "cook-off" testing with the Pressure Trace system in the Creedmoor. Remember there isn't a powder that is just universally insensitive, it is ALWAYS about application. In the Creed, RL-17 is easily every bit as stable as H4350, if not more so; same can be said of Superformance. The deal with RL-17 & Supr is how they burn, and can confuse you if you only rely on "Signs", or watch velocity as a linear trend line. H4350 when used within it's happy pressure range burns very linearly, as do most powders you know of. RL-17 is somewhat progressive burning powder, meaning that the burning curve changes with pressure being run; and Supr is VERY progressive. I don't have my Photobucket log-in on me to post pics, but to try and give you a mental visual between the two types:

Regular powders ignite and immediately spike to max pressure, then very quickly drop-off. Any burning speed powder does this, the only change is in the total pressure being run.
Progressive burning powders spike up but then plateau off, so think of a mesa or a butte. Because they don't spike and drop immediately, they change burning speed and can "push" with high sustained pressure for much longer than a non-progressive powder.

The progressives aren't just a linear deal like the classic powders, so how much of a plateau Vs. peak there is can really change depending upon the operating pressure. I've posted these graphs before, but in the Creed I can drop 10,000 psi but only lose 50-ish fps from max velocity when using Superformance. The trouble is if you can't see the burning curve, meaning only watching velocity or staring at brass as some absolute pressure indicator. Remember the 10% lot variation warnings, they are VERY real; I've pressure tested a few things that had more than 10% difference between lots. Extruded powder has it's burning rates controlled by geometry(volume) and ball powder is by coatings.

As far as powders, with the lighter bullets URP is very stable.

i'm a little new around here and I would like to read up on the studies that have been done that you refer to, and I really like graphs too, so could you please give me a link to some of this reading?

thanks,
Richard

[darkker]

As far as the burning rates? Hornady has some, mostly fluff, but some explanation and graph on their Superformance ammo page; or here is some of the testing we've done.

Here is a "normal" powders burning curve. Don't focus on how things do or don't line-up, focus on the curve shape itself:

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j84/Darkker13/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2015-12-06-11-01-25_zpsu5bblliq.png


Here is a progressive burning curve. I'll put two pics up, showing how the curve changes with pressures being run. Notice how little the velocity actually changes:

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j84/Darkker13/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2015-11-26-20-21-35_zps0ktikfds.png

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j84/Darkker13/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2014-12-26-18-30-06_zpspe2comlp.png


If you want some tech articles on pressure testing, why "signs" are dangerous, or the background on why temp sensitivity isn't really a powder issue per se. Some of Dr. Bramwell's papers can still be found here:
https://www.shootingsoftware.com/tech.htm

More testing on temp stability and such can be found in papers done by the NavSat, and Land warefare folks. Don't have a link handy, but you can find some of them through the General Dynamics military powder page. Some of those tests were done by Brian Litz as well.

[Iowa Fox]

Don't know about the 308 but for the CM you might want to consider H100V. After trying it I won't be buying anymore H4350.

[RCE1]

BTW, I just ordered some H4350 from Brownells. They have it in stock now.

[Phranque]

BTW, I just ordered some H4350 from Brownells. They have it in stock now.

Not any more....