308 full length sizing issue

[trentcwwilson]

I'm still fairly new to reloading 308 and I've run into an issue with my die. I'm getting massive dents in the cases at the start of the shoulder as well as some denting on the shoulder such as what you get by necking down cases to a smaller bullet. I get the latter whole necking down 30-06 brass to 6.5-06 before hydro forming to 260 Dingo specs. What could be some issues I'm running into? This is NOT AR used brass. It's PPU that I received from a Canadian PRS shooter who's ammo was confiscated at the border due to a screw up on his paperwork. It was once fired in his gun, and was deprimed, sized, then wet tumbled with SS media for 3 hours to ensure completely clean brass. I'm assuming it's because it's cheap PPU. I've reloaded their 38 Special cases before and I know how quickly they lose primer pocket strength.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170430/d745d43568d4c1148ccc5f783ec30f44.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170430/6b88fba45e5c8156c87252439ea3c43f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170430/44475ca2b81830d0f0be23466294274e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170430/601defc9688182e34debf1560bb967a1.jpg

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[Phranque]

See below... likely #2

http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloading/10-common-reloading-mistakes/

[trentcwwilson]

See below... likely #2

http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloading/10-common-reloading-mistakes/
Not a lube issue. I'm using Royal Purple synthetic just like I have for the last 10 years with no issues in .223, .458 SOCOM, 300WM, and 416 Barrett. I'll mention I'm using Redding 84155 307/308 dies. Got away from Lee and I'll never go back.

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[Deadshot2]

If it's not a lube issue another possible cause is the case is work hardened and won't yield evenly to the sizing pressures.

The only time I've seen dents like that were when re-forming from a different caliber (ie: 6.5 Creedmoor from .308 Win).

Try annealing the case neck/shoulder then size. Could be a combination of "his chamber size versus die size" combined with relatively inelastic brass due to normal work hardening.

If you don't own an annealing machine, just do it the way we always did before them. A socket on an adapter so it can be turned in a cordless drill/screwdriver, a Propane Torch, and a good sense of rhythm. Stop just before the brass starts to glow. For me that amounts to 4-6 seconds with the neck/shoulder junction right at the point of the "inner blue flame" and I watch both for a nice blue line on the case wall just below the shoulder and NO glow in the neck. Some recommend doing this in a dark room so the glow becomes more visible than it would if you're in a well lit area. Definitely stop if you see a color change in the flame that indicates you are burning copper. Flame will turn bluish green.

If you already anneal, the above may just be of use to others reading this who haven't annealed yet. :p

[trentcwwilson]

I don't anneal yet. Then again, this is literally the first sizing after the factory load. I wouldn't think it's been hardened to much. I'll try it and see if it changes. Now where'd I leave the torch....

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[Deadshot2]

I don't anneal yet. Then again, this is literally the first sizing after the factory load. I wouldn't think it's been hardened to much. I'll try it and see if it changes. Now where'd I leave the torch....

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You might be amazed at how hard some "factory" brass can be. It is going to depend on how many times during the "drawing" process for the case it's annealed. From the small pellet of brass that a case starts out, it's drawn through dies with mandrels and some factories may feel an extra annealing step is OK to skip in order to make a price point. Let's remember that the military purchasers of ammo around the world could care less about reloading. To them it's a single use item and the only brass they collect is from training areas, primarily because it tends to pile up. Battlefields? Not on your life.

On the other hand brass sold through retail markets is annealed regularly in the process as it's expected to be reloaded multiple times. Some companies (Lapua for example) pride themselves on the reputation for multiple reloadings that exceed that of competitors in most cases.


Can't find your torch? Just borrow one from a family member or friend. They won't miss it for a couple of years :p

[trentcwwilson]

You might be amazed at how hard some "factory" brass can be. It is going to depend on how many times during the "drawing" process for the case it's annealed. From the small pellet of brass that a case starts out, it's drawn through dies with mandrels and some factories may feel an extra annealing step is OK to skip in order to make a price point. Let's remember that the military purchasers of ammo around the world could care less about reloading. To them it's a single use item and the only brass they collect is from training areas, primarily because it tends to pile up. Battlefields? Not on your life.

On the other hand brass sold through retail markets is annealed regularly in the process as it's expected to be reloaded multiple times. Some companies (Lapua for example) pride themselves on the reputation for multiple reloadings that exceed that of competitors in most cases.


Can't find your torch? Just borrow one from a family member or friend. They won't miss it for a couple of years :p
Yea....don't forget the lead melting pot. Still don't know where the hell mine got off to...

And this isn't milspec brass. It was match ammo from PPU. I'm amazed the ones I've loaded 3 times haven't lost primer pocket strength like the pistol brass. Is it worth buying Lapua? Starline just started a run of 308 and it's getting great reviews. Thicker brass, so it's gonna last longer but have to watch the pressures.

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[Deadshot2]

Yea....don't forget the lead melting pot. Still don't know where the hell mine got off to...

And this isn't milspec brass. It was match ammo from PPU. I'm amazed the ones I've loaded 3 times haven't lost primer pocket strength like the pistol brass. Is it worth buying Lapua? Starline just started a run of 308 and it's getting great reviews. Thicker brass, so it's gonna last longer but have to watch the pressures.

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Personally I like Lapua. It's kind of like an old saying I read once. "It's not how much you pay, it's how often you pay it". I have Lapua brass I've been shooting for a dozen years and have totally lost track of how many times I've reloaded it. When I clean it (SS Pins, Dawn, Lemishine, water) I then check primer pockets with a Go/No-Go gauge. From my original batch I think I've tossed 5-6 due to loose primer pockets. After all that shooting the cost per case has gone down considerably. Most of my Winchester Brass I've purchased over the years is now in someone else's brass as I've tossed it after as few as 4 reloadings due to loose primer pockets.

Back to the PPU brass, is it the same brass type as 7.62X51 NATO with the thicker walls at the base of the case? PPU was, pretty much until very recently, essentially a military run production facility. All standards were controlled by their military and again, with not much thought about reloading I'm pretty sure.

In closing, I'm not aware of any standard for "Match or Match Grade". Is it inspected for uniform case wall thickness? Neck runout and thickness variations? Capacity? My guess is that at the most it's sorted by weight with the assumption that means equal volume. For serious hand loaders a lot more prep than that goes into creating their "Match" ammo. Yes, they start with top shelf brass but then they go to work, the amount of which is governed by the degree of OCD they suffer from.:p

[trentcwwilson]

Personally I like Lapua. It's kind of like an old saying I read once. "It's not how much you pay, it's how often you pay it". I have Lapua brass I've been shooting for a dozen years and have totally lost track of how many times I've reloaded it. When I clean it (SS Pins, Dawn, Lemishine, water) I then check primer pockets with a Go/No-Go gauge. From my original batch I think I've tossed 5-6 due to loose primer pockets. After all that shooting the cost per case has gone down considerably. Most of my Winchester Brass I've purchased over the years is now in someone else's brass as I've tossed it after as few as 4 reloadings due to loose primer pockets.

Back to the PPU brass, is it the same brass type as 7.62X51 NATO with the thicker walls at the base of the case? PPU was, pretty much until very recently, essentially a military run production facility. All standards were controlled by their military and again, with not much thought about reloading I'm pretty sure.

In closing, I'm not aware of any standard for "Match or Match Grade". Is it inspected for uniform case wall thickness? Neck runout and thickness variations? Capacity? My guess is that at the most it's sorted by weight with the assumption that means equal volume. For serious hand loaders a lot more prep than that goes into creating their "Match" ammo. Yes, they start with top shelf brass but then they go to work, the amount of which is governed by the degree of OCD they suffer from.:p
I'm anal, a perfectionist, and OCD. Yes, I'm the idiot that checks rim thickness on rimfire bullets. And you'd be amazed at how much more accurate your rimfires could be...

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[bigedp51]

Clean the die and check the vent hole, I had the same thing happen because the dies lock ring covered the vent hole.

It doesn't matter if it is a oil or thicker type lube when full length resizing the lube is forced upward and then compressed and causes dents.

So again check for a vent hole, one of the new dies I just bought didn't even have a vent hole.

What make die are you using and if its a small base die. (I gots to know)

[trentcwwilson]

Clean the die and check the vent hole, I had the same thing happen because the dies lock ring covered the vent hole.

It doesn't matter if it is a oil or thicker type lube when full length resizing it is forced upward and then compressed and causes dents.

So again check for a vent hole, one of the new dies I just bought didn't even have a vent hole.

What make die are you using and if its a small base die. (I gots to know)
I posted the die set above I think. I'm currently in the hospital visiting my grandmother and checking on her knee replacement. She's doing well, I know you guys would ask. I hadn't checked if the vent hole is blocked, then again, this only happens on a few cases. I know the Lee dies I have GUSH oil when I'm in a groove doing .223 and 416 Barrett.

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[Deadshot2]

Clean the die and check the vent hole, I had the same thing happen because the dies lock ring covered the vent hole.

It doesn't matter if it is a oil or thicker type lube when full length resizing the lube is forced upward and then compressed and causes dents.

So again check for a vent hole, one of the new dies I just bought didn't even have a vent hole.

What make die are you using and if its a small base die. (I gots to know)

That was my first thought but at second glance the majority of the dent is on the side of the case and extends a little into the shoulder. If this was a lube dent there would be a huge glob of lube remaining on the case and subsequent sized cases would have dents of decreasing size as the excess lube transfers from die to case.

[trentcwwilson]

That was my first thought but at second glance the majority of the dent is on the side of the case and extends a little into the shoulder. If this was a lube dent there would be a huge glob of lube remaining on the case and subsequent sized cases would have dents of decreasing size as the excess lube transfers from die to case.
I'm an anal little prick, so I know my dies are clean. And it won't be the die interior considering it's a Redding set. I'll check the vent hole. I have it set per Lee's setup seeing as the Redding directions were a bit vague. Raise ram, insert until it touches, lower ram, 1/3 to 1/4 turn to overcam the ram, tighten lock ring. I didn't see if the lock ring covered the vent hole.

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[bigedp51]

That was my first thought but at second glance the majority of the dent is on the side of the case and extends a little into the shoulder. If this was a lube dent there would be a huge glob of lube remaining on the case and subsequent sized cases would have dents of decreasing size as the excess lube transfers from die to case.

He is using synthetic motor oil for his case lube and its not going to stay in one place. His next problem will be a blown head gasket and smoke coming out of his tail pipe.

Normally real thicker case lube collects in the shoulder area of the die and causes shoulder dents. His problem is the "motor oil" is running back down hill in the die and a new oiled case is then pushed back into the die on top of the old oil in the die.


I know the Lee dies I have GUSH oil when I'm in a groove doing .223 and 416 Barrett.


I still want to know if he is using a small base die without a vent hole or blocked vent hole.

[trentcwwilson]

He is using synthetic motor oil for his case lube and its not going to stay in one place. His next problem will be a blown head gasket and smoke coming out of his tail pipe.

Normally real thicker case lube collects in the shoulder area of the die and causes shoulder dents. His problem is the "motor oil" is running back down hill in the die and a new oiled case is then pushed back into the die on top of the old oil in the die.
Again, not a lube issue. I lube one case, then run half a dozen. I've used this same method for 10 years with no issue on my other bottleneck cases. Only started with 308.

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[trentcwwilson]

Ok, just got to check my full length die. No vent hole. Die set is #84155.

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[bigedp51]

Again, not a lube issue. I lube one case, then run half a dozen. I've used this same method for 10 years with no issue on my other bottleneck cases. Only started with 308.

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Ok, just got to check my full length die. No vent hole. Die set is #84155.

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Guess what, you now have a lube problem, if the lube isn't squirting out the top of your Redding die where does it end up?

Clean the die and use some Imperial or Hornady Unique lube and see what happens.

Don't ask me how I know about your problem but I just got a new .308 Savage Hog Hunter and a set of Redding dies.

The problem was worse with my RCBS small base dies with the lock ring covering the vent hole.


Never say never, it will bite you in the ass every time.

[trentcwwilson]

Guess what, you now have a lube problem, if the lube isn't squirting out the top of your Redding die where does it end up?

Clean the die and use some Imperial or Hornady Unique lube and see what happens.

Don't ask me how I know about your problem but I just got a new .308 Savage Hog Hunter and a set of Redding dies.

The problem was worse with my RCBS small base dies with the lock ring covering the vent hole.



Never say never, it will bite you in the ass every time.

I never said never though...(joke, cause some people can't grasp jokes)

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[trentcwwilson]

Is there anything else I can use? I don't have any of the stuff you listed and the locals don't carry it. If I order online, I'll be looking at close to a month in shipping.

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[bigedp51]

Is there anything else I can use? I don't have any of the stuff you listed and the locals don't carry it. If I order online, I'll be looking at close to a month in shipping.

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Homemade Firearm Cleaners & Lubricants
Case Sizing Lubricants
http://www.frfrogspad.com/homemade.htm#Sizing

If you don't feel like making your own

RCBS Case Slick Spray Lube 4 oz Pump
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/160333/rcbs-case-slick-spray-lube-4-oz-pump

Hornady Unique Case Lube 4 oz Tub
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/758495/hornady-unique-case-lube-4-oz-tub

If you live on the farm you can use Bag Balm it contains lanolin and will help keep your hands udderly soft.

https://www.cvs.com/bizcontent/merchandising/productimages/large/9819300017.jpg

And be very careful and do not put Royal Purple engine oil and Remington 7 1/2 primers in the cattle feed.

http://i.imgur.com/eHM6WZi.jpg


(joke, cause some people can't grasp jokes)


https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/images/smilies/LaughingSmiley.gif