What surface to level gun on to install scope?

[DT400]

I have a model 11 LRH, Talley rings and a Vortex HS-T scope.

The top of the receiver is round and the only place I could find that looked like it was designed to be used to level the rifle is the left side of the receiver by the bolt....it's the only flat surface I could find and it's only about 1/4" wide so I used it. I have a jig to hold the rifle steady when mounting a scope, and I double check things through out the process to be sure nothing moved, I am really particular when it comes to mounting scopes.

I originally tried using the Talley rings bottom halves at the mating surface to the upper ring half once they were torqued but the front and rear rings had different ideas of what level was IE something wasn't machined right on the rings or the rings are designed at a side-to-side tilt.
So what are you guys using to make darn sure the reticle and bore are in alignment as good as can be?

Originally I had the rings installed for the widest support on the scope but ended up having to move the scope forward and had to swap the rear ring around as the scope was already as far forward as possible with the rings in that position. Once swapped the front and rear rings agreed on what was level was between themselves but didn't agree with the rifles only flat surface. Well just swapping the rear ring front to back moved my POI left AND down 2.5" at 100 yds which makes me think the rings aren't machined correctly.

Is there a way to tell the rings are really true to the center-line of the bore?

Darrell

[yobuck]

I have a model 11 LRH, Talley rings and a Vortex HS-T scope.
The top of the receiver is round and the only place I could find that looked like it was designed to be used to level the rifle is the left side of the receiver by the bolt....it's the only flat surface I could find and it's only about 1/4" wide so I used it. I have a jig to hold the rifle steady when mounting a scope, and I double check things through out the process to be sure nothing moved, I am really particular when it comes to mounting scopes.
I originally tried using the Talley rings bottom halves at the mating surface to the upper ring half once they were torqued but the front and rear rings had different ideas of what level was IE something wasn't machined right on the rings or the rings are designed at a side-to-side tilt.
So what are you guys using to make darn sure the reticle and bore are in alignment as good as can be?
Originally I had the rings installed for the widest support on the scope but ended up having to move the scope forward and had to swap the rear ring around as the scope was already as far forward as possible with the rings in that position. Once swapped the front and rear rings agreed on what was level was between themselves but didn't agree with the rifles only flat surface. Well just swapping the rear ring front to back moved my POI left AND down 2.5" at 100 yds which makes me think the rings aren't machined correctly.
Is there a way to tell the rings are really true to the center-line of the bore?

Darrell

No doubt there are ways to tell that. But if your scope is installed the only way you can install it, and everything works ok whats the issue other than everything might not be perfect?
May be the windage isn't exactly dead center in the adjustment range? So long as theres enough travel left in both directions, so what?

And different type rings could even fix that.

Used to be if you had a gunsmith install a scope on a hunting gun, he would not completely tighten the ring screws before handing you the gun to look thru the scope. How does that suit you? would be the question, meaning eye relief, and cross hair tilt after you had shouldered the gun a few times.

Maybe some minor adjustments would be made before final tightening.

Ive also watched as some very good and well known 1000 yd gun builders mounted scopes.

Ive yet to ever see one use a level, and frankly I don't know, or have I seen, anybody using one attached to their scope either for hunting or long range target shooting. Not saying any of it is bad mind you, but I do question how much its necessary.

[DT400]

No doubt there are ways to tell that. But if your scope is installed the only way you can install it, and everything works ok whats the issue other than everything might not be perfect? The concern is it might not be able to dial out beyond the range it is originally set at and stay true. IE if I sight in at 200 yds then dial up to 600 yds if the bore of the scope and rifle are not in alignment the windage will be off at 600 and I don't think there is a reason a properly mounted scope should have to be adjusted both elevation and windage, unless there is wind to deal with.
May be the windage isn't exactly dead center in the adjustmeent range? So long as theres enough travel left in both directions, so what?
And different type rings could even fix that. There is plenty of travel all around, and I should have stated that I had the scope sighted in at 100 yds before I swapped the rear mount 180 Deg, telling me it is at least off center.
Used to be if you had a gunsmith install a scope on a hunting gun, he would not completely tighten the ring screws before handing you the gun to look thru the scope. How does that suit you? would be the question, meaning eye relief, and cross hair tilt after you had shouldered the gun a few times. That is still the way I do it but I wanted to try to see if I could get the widest stance out of the rings, even though I knew it was going to be about 1/2" shorter than I like. After going to the range I didn't like it set back and had to settle for using a shorter spread on the rings to get the scope where I needed it.
Maybe some minor adjustments would be made before final tightening.
Ive also watched as some very good and well known 1000 yd gun builders mounted scopes.
Ive yet to ever see one use a level, and frankly I don't know, or have I seen, anybody using one attached to their scope either for hunting or long range target shooting. Not saying any of it is bad mind you, but I do question how much its necessary. Interesting I have never seen anyone mount a scope on anything other than a .22 without a scope leveling tool(s) of some sort. I must disagree about the anti cant device, if you are able to look through the scope and can have the reticle perfectly plumb that is great but the level will definitely make the chance for a miss less. If the rifle isn't straight up it won't arc the bullet straight up but up and to the side. To each there own I guess. Those guys must be a lot better than me.

So anyway back to the original questions.
What surface is everyone using to level a 11 LRP
Is there a way to check how true the bore alignment is between the rifle and scope? I know I could just shoot at distance but that isn't fool proof since you will likely have some wind drift to deal with. I just want to know if there is a way or am I just wanting to be to precise?

Thanks

Darrell

[Spearjunkie]

Bore Laser comes to mind but I could be wrong. I'm thinking that if they align, your vertical reticle line would be touching the bore laser.

As far as making sure the rifle is level, they sell small magnetic levels that fit in the action that are not expensive. You need to make sure the rifle is level and the scope is level to the rifle when mounted.

[DT400]

Bore Laser comes to mind but I could be wrong. I'm thinking that if they align, your vertical reticle line would be touching the bore laser.

As far as making sure the rifle is level, they sell small magnetic levels that fit in the action that are not expensive. You need to make sure the rifle is level and the scope is level to the rifle when mounted.


I you are referring to a laser bore sighter that isn't what I am after. A bore sighter helps get the scope and the bore of the rifle close so when you start sighting in you are sure to be on paper. They are used after the scope is mounted.
I have levels but what I am looking for is the place on the 11 LRH people are placing the level to make sure the rifle is plumb so when you level the scope your windage reticle and bore centerline are exact.
The job is done I am just looking for what others might have done. I am always looking and learning new ways to do things better.

Darrell

[RustyShackle]

Use an iPhone! Place the rifle in an stable position(clamped) and set the phone on the rail, then level the whole rig. Once that is done install scope and set phone on top of turret cap(assuming this is all straight) turn scope until level. Tighten rings and go shoot. Posting this from my phone so not real explanatory but hopefully illustrates what I'm trying to describe

[DT400]

Use an iPhone! Place the rifle in an stable position(clamped) and set the phone on the rail, then level the whole rig. Once that is done install scope and set phone on top of turret cap(assuming this is all straight) turn scope until level. Tighten rings and go shoot. Posting this from my phone so not real explanatory but hopefully illustrates what I'm trying to describe

This isn't my first scope set-up by a long shot. I understand what you are saying but this gun doesn't have a rail. It has a rounded top and if you read my post you will see the rings gave two different reading so they were not reliable. I wouldn't trust a phones level. A good bubble level will be more precise than even a quality electronic level that reads in .1 deg increments. I have both and a bubble is more sensitive. Now if you have a electronic level that will go to .01 deg that would be cool.

Darrell

[J.Baker]

Well, therein lies your problem - you chose a mounting setup that doesn't offer a flat surface. Round action, round barrel - nowhere flat to lay a level from as you've discovered. The only place you MIGHT be able to use is the tang area if you remove the bolt assembly from the rifle - though I'm not sure how perfectly matched the two flats on either side would be to serve as a proper place to level from.

Being that ultra-precise is really only necessary if you plan on shooting beyond 600 yards. Most guys shooting that far go with a 20 MOA base to keep the mechanics of their optic more centered at longer ranges which means a rail.

[stoky]

I have an inexpensive clear plastic square (made by B Square IIRC), that sets on the bolt rails and has a line that lines up with the vertical on the scope reticle. I got the scope dead on the last time I used it.
IMO, the resolution is poor on small bubble levels.
If you have a bore laser (collimator), you can see if the dot tracks the vertical adjustment of the scope.
I like to verify the alignment of the scope with live fire at a 3' long plumbed magic marker line at about a hundred yards, at the top and bottom of the BDC, or using the vertical adjustment on the scope.

[Arky 223]

Put the barrel in a vise. Screw a Weaver type base ,on one set of holes Set a level on the base, adjust barrel in vise until action is level. Remove Weaver base, use whatever ,type base and rings that you like. Hang a plumb line at 100 yards, align vertical hair with line, fasten her down, every thing is level and plumb. I learned this while attending the University of Nyrobi.

[Deadshot2]

Put the barrel in a vise. Screw a Weaver type base ,on one set of holes Set a level on the base, adjust barrel in vise until action is level. Remove Weaver base, use whatever ,type base and rings that you like. Hang a plumb line at 100 yards, align vertical hair with line, fasten her down, every thing is level and plumb. I learned this while attending the University of Nyrobi.


Ditto here. If I didn't have a scope base I'd just use the piece of aluminum flat bar that I can lay on the bottom of the bolt lug rails. I then wad a big chunk of paper towel in the ejection port to hold the flat bar firmly aganst the bottom of the bolt way. To make sure it's a "Precision Job" I make sure to check the level by reversing it to make sure it reads the same both ways. If the bubble is off the same amount to the left, then the right (or vice versa) I know I'm good.

Really doesn't matter anyway because the next stop is the Tall Target to make sure the scope tracks vertically as I increase elevation. If it doesn't I merely rotate the scope so it does and if the reticle looks crooked to me, no matter. Bullets go where they need to.

[gbflyer]

Weaver makes a little cheap plastic spirit level that will fit the bolt raceway. I've found it to work good enough. I don't shoot long range though so mileage may vary as to its usefulness for your situation.

Also, if you split the difference on your Talley mounts front to back, you'll be golden.

[justiw]

All this work to level a rifle, a plum line and then then line up the reticle seems a lot of wasted work to me. All you need to do is make sure the bore is aligned to the reticle. Can't you just stick something in the bore with a good 90 degree bend so it sticks up, then line up the scope to that tool? A good allen wrench with some tape on it aught to do the trick.

[hafejd30]

If you shoot long range, especially hunting you need to keep your scope/bore level both when they are mounted and while making the shot.

I use a couple levels, maybe weaver or something can't remember. One goes where mr.furious said (across the tang) the other goes inside the action on the bolt raceway. I usually run rails so I check the rails with the other levels to determine its exact. On a rifle that's isn't set up like a savage I run the level on the tang or rail, then bolt a level holder I made on the barrel. That way i can see that it's still level when the scope is covering the rail.

I then level the crosshairs on a plum bob at about 75 yards. I tighten everything down. Then mount the rifle solid on that line and run the dials about 30 moa up and confirm the reticle is still centered on the string.

It's a lot of bs but when you shoot long range or ELR it's a necessity. I used to do well even to 500 without much trouble. But if your canting the rifle or lining up a scope on a flat surface that's mounted canted on a rifle you are leaving room for error. As you adjust more elevation you will unknowing be adjusting in small incriminates left or right. Not only ruining that shot but giving you false wind corrections and what not for future shots.

For a hunter, inside 300 yards, I'd just sit further from the scope and line the crosshairs up with the center of the bore.

If you do the mounting properly make sure you put a level on. Keeps you from unknowingly canting the rifle while shooting

My shooting for targets is usually from 600 to 1200. Occasionally out to mile. Like furious said, if your not shooting long range then it's a lot of trouble for little gain

[hafejd30]

You can also cheat at a range and use target stands etc to keep your scope level. Will work fine if it's semi level and you check it before each shot. Won't take away the effects of canting but will keep you relatively consistent on the range. Hunting doesn't provide this luxury generally

[Spearjunkie]

Wheeler makes a kit that has 2 levels in it. As Mr Furiois said, one goes in the tang which I described a little different in my first post. It's. called the Wheeler Cross Hair leveling kit.

[m12lrs]

Well i will go through my scope mounting procedure

Install the rings

Use the sinclair alingment bars to check ring alignment

Use the sinclair lapping bars to ensure proper alignment and contact between rings and scope

Use this simple tool to install the scope level in the rings

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/sight-scope-installation-tools/scope-reticle-levelers/optic-leveler-prod75317.aspx

Now this works well with a bench gun but if you are going to be holding the rifle and pulling it tightly into your shoulder pocket this won't work. Every shooter has a cant when the rifle is mounted and in the shoulder pocket. The scope crosshairs need to be level when the rifle is mounted. Best way to accomplish this is with a plumb bob string line.

[DT400]

If you shoot long range, especially hunting you need to keep your scope/bore level both when they are mounted and while making the shot.

I use a couple levels, maybe weaver or something can't remember. One goes where mr.furious said (across the tang) the other goes inside the action on the bolt raceway. I usually run rails so I check the rails with the other levels to determine its exact. On a rifle that's isn't set up like a savage I run the level on the tang or rail, then bolt a level holder I made on the barrel. That way i can see that it's still level when the scope is covering the rail.

I then level the crosshairs on a plum bob at about 75 yards. I tighten everything down. Then mount the rifle solid on that line and run the dials about 30 moa up and confirm the reticle is still centered on the string.

It's a lot of bs but when you shoot long range or ELR it's a necessity. I used to do well even to 500 without much trouble. But if your canting the rifle or lining up a scope on a flat surface that's mounted canted on a rifle you are leaving room for error. As you adjust more elevation you will unknowing be adjusting in small incriminates left or right. Not only ruining that shot but giving you false wind corrections and what not for future shots.

For a hunter, inside 300 yards, I'd just sit further from the scope and line the crosshairs up with the center of the bore.

If you do the mounting properly make sure you put a level on. Keeps you from unknowingly canting the rifle while shooting

My shooting for targets is usually from 600 to 1200. Occasionally out to mile. Like furious said, if your not shooting long range then it's a lot of trouble for little gain

This is precisely why I find it not only important but necessary to properly set up a scope as accurately as possible, and to use a anti-cant level on guns I shoot at small targets at distance.

Darrell

[DT400]

Every shooter has a cant when the rifle is mounted and in the shoulder pocket. The scope crosshairs need to be level when the rifle is mounted. Best way to accomplish this is with a plumb bob string line.

This is why a anti-cant level is so important for longer distances. If your rifle is canted it won't arc the bullet straight up but off slightly to the left or right, and the further you are shooting the further to the left or right, off of the centerline of your POA the bullet will travel. It's basic geometry. At 1 or 200 yds it isn't a big deal but at further distances it can be greatly exaggerated and cause you to miss..or worse yet wound an animal.

Darrell

[m12lrs]

Level rifle level scope: Good

Canted rifle canted scope: Bad

Canted rifle level scope: Good!