flat primer question

[RC20]

Is that smoke on the Normal case? I.e. far left?

There are some more aspects to consider.

The primer should be slightly lower than the case head. I.e recessed -003 or .005.

FC brass is heavier and in my opinion that means less case capacity. It might be enough to push over the edge.

Bolt disassembly is pretty easy once you get the glue broke loose on the bolt.

You do need to pop the button on the back into the fired notch. Also need to reset it when done!

I use a long handled hex wrench, towel on the bench and put it at an angle and smack it with a rubber mallet.

You should be able to trip the button and see how the firing pin looks up front.

[WV1951]

RC20, I should have noted that the discoloration on the Norma case caught my eye as well. It must be some kind sealant. It is on unfired as well.
The primer is flush or slightly recessed. -.003-.005, I dunno. I am aware it should be slightly recessed. I feel them bottom out and I have pressed a bit harder on one to see if it will go deeper, but it only causes the primer flatten some.
I did get my bolt apart with the foot on the bolt and hex key method. The firing pin measured .068 and the firing pin hole was .0725(maybe .072). Exact measurements that Texas10 posted in a similar thread about a year ago. I have a Savage contact now, and today emailed asking about the firing pin/hole sloppiness.
This entire issue is a result of the difference in looks between my fired primers and factory ones. Mine just seem too flat, but maybe not an issue.

[The Old Coach]

Thanks, Coach
I stumbled on a year old thread from Texas 10 regarding this very issue and the saga he had trying to work with Savage. Frustrating at best. I watched a video from Gre-Tan on how he sleeves/bushes the firing pin channel to tighten it up. If I can figure out to to get my bolt apart, I am going to try and check the slop.
I have looked at a number of pics and videos and I am cautiously optimistic. The flattish primer still cause a little concern. Obviously, opinions are varied, and I do not have a chrono.

If it were me, I'd get a series of pin gages to measure the firing pin hole. www.gageshop.com is my usual source. Graded ZZ is fine for your purpose. I run into this problem quite often with the antique Stevens single shot rifles that I rehabilitate. Bushing the hole is almost always part of the program. Grade ZZ pins are cheap. I also use them to gage revolver cylinder throats. Nothing else is as accurate until you get into $200,000 Zeiss coordinate measuring machines.

[WV1951]

If it were me, I'd get a series of pin gages to measure the firing pin hole.

OK. I checked.




I did get my bolt apart with the foot on the bolt and hex key method. The firing pin measured .068 and the firing pin hole was .0725(maybe .072). Exact measurements that Texas10 posted in a similar thread about a year ago. I have a Savage contact now, and today emailed asking about the firing pin/hole sloppiness.

[creedman6.5]

WV1951

I'm loading for three AR15 rifles and a Savage .223 and I do not crimp any of the cases. The majority of dies have a expander .001 smaller than bullet diameter and you can increase bullet grip by reducing the expander diameter. Whidden custom dies sells expander kits with five expanders from bullet diameter to .004 under bullet diameter.

The expander for my AR15 rifles is .002 smaller than bullet diameter using Lake City brass "without" crimping.

And all my primers I use for my .223/5.56 have a cup thickness of .025.

You have two problems, your crimping your cases and using a thin soft primer. Stop crimping and change primers and your problem will go away.

I don't crimp any of my loads, for ar or bolt rifles. None of my rigs have any recoil since they're all outfitted with brakes or cans.


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[creedman6.5]

SR primer crater in itself is not a sign of impending doom. Add a crater with an ejector wipe, difficult bolt release, expanded head and loose primer pocket, it is.

I agree. If my sweet load for a rifle happens to flatten the primer slightly, I typically don't sweat it. The ejector wipe (as well as the other signs you've mentioned) is a definite high pressure sign and should be noted. I like to use good quality brass, so I do what I can to prolong its life. So long as I'm not giving up accuracy to avoid slightly above ideal pressures, and by that I mean a little bit of flattening of the primers. Anything more than that and I will back down the charge, play with seating depth, or even try a different bullet all together. My go to are Berger 140gr vld hunting, and 110gr hybrids for long range rigs (a 6.5 creed, and 6 creed), and for my coyote rigs I run sierra game king 65gr btsp's on my .223's, and 75gr swift sciroccos(great performing bullets with a very high bc, but the cost is higher than giraffe p#**¥)for my 1:8 twist 22-250.


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[creedman6.5]

WV1951

I'm loading for three AR15 rifles and a Savage .223 and I do not crimp any of the cases. The majority of dies have a expander .001 smaller than bullet diameter and you can increase bullet grip by reducing the expander diameter. Whidden custom dies sells expander kits with five expanders from bullet diameter to .004 under bullet diameter.

The expander for my AR15 rifles is .002 smaller than bullet diameter using Lake City brass "without" crimping.

And all my primers I use for my .223/5.56 have a cup thickness of .025.

You have two problems, your crimping your cases and using a thin soft primer. Stop crimping and change primers and your problem will go away.

I don't crimp for my ar either, and totally agree with the expander comments. I get pretty solid results with Hornady dies and seaters, I do add the micrometer deal to my seating dies for repeatability though. I like the bullet aligning/concentricity insert on the hornady seaters. Could see the possible need for a light crimp on some of the ar10's that didn't have any means of recoil reduction though.


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[Texas10]

WV, the batch of firing pins I received from Savage mostly measured .069 to .070. I say mostly because they're all out of round by up to .0005.

Looks like you've got between .004 and .005 clearance in your bolt head, and a new pin could knock that down to .003 or less and probably fix your blanking issues. They're not expensive, but you'll have to complete a waiver of Liability and fax to them before they'll ship to you. I was able to buy "all you want" according to CS at Savage. Your response might be different, so expect what ever they throw at you. They won't hand pick a pin for you, so you have to buy several and fit them your self.

If you run up against a wall at Savage, PM me and I'll send you a new one I bought that measures .0697.

[Scott Evans]

I've got several spare pins laying about and confer with Tx10, .065" to .069" for mine.

If you work the tip to a flatter semi-hemisphere and not a full hemisphere shape the sharp edged cratering pretty much disappears

[WV1951]

Thanks for the offer Texas10. Will keep that in mind. I'll shoot you a PM if I decide to do that.

Scott, I did that very thing last night and took my protrusion down about .003. I am now at .045 protrusion, which is a bit more than the .035 recommendation, but might help some. Should know tomorrow, if I go out.

[Scott Evans]

For the .040" +/- .005" pin protrusion to work reliably several stars need to be aligned-

Case to chamber fit (both headspace and body diameter) must be close.
No Tula or Wolf SR primers (they seem to be very low sensitivity, require a strong deep strike)
Not fireforming AI type brass.

Any of the above can lead to a marked increased in FTF's.

[WV1951]

Scott, I did that very thing last night and took my protrusion down about .003. I am now at .045 protrusion, which is a bit more than the .035 recommendation, but might help some. Should know tomorrow, if I go out.
Shoot some groups and the primer dent looked better and the 69's, which are the offenders, left very little cratering. Just a slight rough edge. I am ok with where I am, and since I will be staying far from max loads, I think I am good to go.