flat primer question

[RC20]

I did a quick read on that article and have it filed, outstanding, I wish I had that when I had started back into this 5-8 years ago.

I had a semi auto go into that pierced primer area (find to start with) Never solved fully and I sold the gun, sorry I did now, not because of that, but I would have liked to solved it total first (I decided I wanted to target shoot not just throw bullets down range so I did not sell the gun because of that)

I now know where I needed to start looking and I could have corrected it, that would have been satisfying.

I also fell into the split base trap and that was another learning experience.

Even today the reloading books don't cover that the way they should and the dies people say, touch the base, then give it 12/8 or 1/4 turn.

Sure it works, but you get 8 firing out of the case and it breaks. Also a tighter chamber is more accurate, so all that excess spaces has its impact.

And just an FYI. FC is great once fired brass, its actually fine for 6 or 8 firings, but it is very soft.

That means its tends to break anyway even with minimal setback

If you are a tad under lubed it can stick in a die and rip the rim off requiring braking out the extractor tool.

I won't even pick up once fired FC (I will take it if offered as I appreciate the being nice part, but then goes into the brass bucket)

[WV1951]

If you are a tad under lubed it can stick in a die and rip the rim off requiring braking out the extractor tool.


Almost all are neck sized only. I then chamber every piece to make sure they are good to go. If tight, I bump back.

[bigedp51]

This is all once fired FC brass and the primers seated quite nicely. I did take notice today that after seating a fresh batch that the CCI 400's do tend to look flatter at the start than my factory rounds.

Cup hardness and thickness has a great deal to do with your problem. The Remington 6 1/2 primer has a warning stating the primer is for lower pressure rifle cartridges and it is .020 thick.
I load for three AR15s and a Savage .223 bolt action and only use primers with a cup thickness of .025 in thickness.

"In rifle cartridges, the 6-1/2 small rifle primer should not be used in the 17 Remington, 222 Remington or the 223 Remington. The 7-1/2 BR is the proper small rifle primer for these rounds."

Look at the primer photos in the link below.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/444346_Having_a_question_about_primer_strikes_.htm l

http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/calhoonprimers02.png

Primers and Pressure Analysis
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/primers-and-pressure-analysis/

CHOOSING THE RIGHT PRIMER - A PRIMER ON PRIMERS
http://www.sksboards.com/smf/?topic=56422.0

If you ever had a SKS go full auto because you used the wrong primer you study what you did wrong.

Below you can see the CCI # 41 primer has a thicker cup in its base. Meaning this primer would not flow around the firing pin as your "thinner" primers did.

http://i.imgur.com/n8TOU36.jpg

[bigedp51]

Almost all are neck sized only. I then chamber every piece to make sure they are good to go. If tight, I bump back.

Do you have a runout gauge to check neck runout and bullet runout? Meaning could your expander be pulling the case necks off center or the seating die be causing the problem and the rub marks on your bullets.

Also a full length resized cartridge case is supported by the bolt face in the rear and by the bullet in the throat and the case body does not touch the chamber walls.

A full length resized case gives the bullet a little wiggle room to be self aligning with the bore. Meaning the case has less guiding effect on the bullet when the case is warped or has excessive runout.

You might want to join the "rat turd in the violin case" club.

http://i.imgur.com/Y3IiYL5.jpg

[creedman6.5]

Those all appear to be a little bit flattened. The roughness around the indentation is where pressure has force the metal up into the firing pin hole on the bolt face. Are you crimping your loads? If so, I personally don't think it's necessary for a .223 bolt gun.


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[WV1951]

Thanks, Biged for the links. Good info there.
It does indeed appear the CCI 400's are on the soft side. However, they are quite prevalent in the small primer crowd. When I backed off the lands, the pressure signs went away. Closer to the lands, and the above pictures with the slight cratering were with 24.0 and 24.5 of H4895. Hodgden recommends 24.0-26.0c. I actually started at 22.0 and worked up. Once I backed off .035, I did not get any craters up to 25.0 and stopped there.
Good question about neck sizing bumping the mouth out of line, but the Lee neck sizing die doesn't utilize an expanding ball(think I got this right, still learning). I do have a very slight out of alignment when chambering a blank case. This was evidenced by the front action screw rubbing on the bottom of the front lug when closing the bolt on an empty piece of brass. Didn't do it with an empty chamber. I filed down the screw slightly and no longer rubs. I told this to Savage today and was told with the floating bolt, that it could be off axis a thousandth or two.
A rat turn in a violin case makes sense.

Creedman, Yes I am crimping my loads. Read many opinions on this over many forums and it is probably a split decision with the edge going to crimping. Talking only 223 here. Once I find a reliable load, I am going to try no crimp.

I did talk to Savage twice(referenced above) with a couple of emails in between. Sent them a pic, and they concurred it is probably a snug throat but not too snug. The rubbed area is partly exaggerated to the slight off center axis of the bolt when chambering. I had the option of returning, but if they found it to spec, it would be my nickel in the end. We left it open and I decide to go that way, it is an option I have.
It appears I will be using well under max load anyway, so I will continue to monitor any pressure signs and stay on the safe side.
Thanks for all of the help.

[creedman6.5]

Yes I agree that there's many mixed feelings as to the crimp or no crimp debate. In most circumstances the crimp is for the purpose of holding the bullet seat depth for cartridges in the mag which experience recoil. When I first started doing loads for my .223 chambered 12fv I had slight high pressure signs for loads I shouldn't have when crimped. The thing I don't like about crimping is that the strength/tightness of crimp is not specified and is completely subjective to the reloaders ideals. These ideals of crimp pressure, along with the resulting case pressures, can vary a bit. I don't crimp on any of my bolt rig loads, not even on my 6.5 or 6 creedmoor match rifles and don't experience any slippage on bullet seating depth. For what it's worth, my gunsmith (a very talented long range shooter, good friend, and also current/former ga precision and badger gunsmith) advises against the crimp for low recoil cartridges in bolt guns, ar15's, and any cartridge in a bench rest type single shot rig. The lack of neck tension in some of the single shot bench rest rigs I've seen is insane. One I've seen, the users loads are jammed into the lands by ten thou and he can't unload a chambered round if unfired without the assistance of a cleaning rod because it pulls the bullet from the case. Lol. Just stupid imo.


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[WV1951]

Excellent point, Creedman
Yes, many of the crimpers were AR shooters and it should be done. Since I have crimped up to now, working on loads, I hate to change a variable. But, with that said, I am still at the beginning, and think I might take your advice and try. I can always redo and test with a crimp for comparison.

[mizzouri1]

This is very interesting, I am shooting the same rifle, 12fv 223 cci 400 with 24-25gr varget 69gr smk and my primers look the same as yours. It don't matter where I seat the bullet.
I had a couple guys of more experience look at my primers and they said the pressure was fine.

I am thinking soft primers, I am going to try thicker primers and see how that goes.

25gr of varget seems to be the sweet spot.

[Scott Evans]

SR primer crater in itself is not a sign of impending doom. Add a crater with an ejector wipe, difficult bolt release, expanded head and loose primer pocket, it is.

[bigedp51]

Excellent point, Creedman
Yes, many of the crimpers were AR shooters and it should be done. Since I have crimped up to now, working on loads, I hate to change a variable. But, with that said, I am still at the beginning, and think I might take your advice and try. I can always redo and test with a crimp for comparison.

WV1951

I'm loading for three AR15 rifles and a Savage .223 and I do not crimp any of the cases. The majority of dies have a expander .001 smaller than bullet diameter and you can increase bullet grip by reducing the expander diameter. Whidden custom dies sells expander kits with five expanders from bullet diameter to .004 under bullet diameter.

The expander for my AR15 rifles is .002 smaller than bullet diameter using Lake City brass "without" crimping.

And all my primers I use for my .223/5.56 have a cup thickness of .025.

You have two problems, your crimping your cases and using a thin soft primer. Stop crimping and change primers and your problem will go away.

[WV1951]

Biged
Shot some more today and did not crimp. Didn't see any difference.Some different loads and seating and I still got two near pierces on different loads, but only one out of three of the same load, two times. Puzzling. The lighter the pill, the smoother the primer. It might be loose primer pockets, but sure doesn't appear so. 21 total today, and the rest were fine.
I bought a thousand primers when I started, but will try to find some BR4's, see how they perform, and go from there. I have even had a couple of ftf, but haven't researched that yet.
BTW, I do not have runout checking capability.

[The Old Coach]

Those primers are not showing you high pressure. They are showing you that your firing pin is too small for the hole in the bolt. End of story.

[bigedp51]

Change primers to one with a cup thickness of .025 and the problem will go away. Also make sure you are not bumping the shoulder back too far and creating too much head clearance.

You are not the first person that has had the same problem with CCI 400 primers with a cup thickness of .020

http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/223_20090302_1.jpg


PRIMERS AND PRESSURE
http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

- Cases that utilize small rifle primers and operate at moderate pressures(40,000 psi) should use CCI 400, Federal 200, Rem 6 1/2, or Win SR. Such cases include 22 CCM, 22 Hornet and the 218 Bee. These primers are also used in heavy handguns such as the 9mm., 357, etc. Other cases that use the small rifle primer can use the above primers only if moderate loads are used. Keep to the lower end of reloading recommendations.

- Cases that utilize Small Rifle primers and operate at higher pressures (55,000 psi) should use CCI 450, CCI BR4, Fed 205 and Rem 7 1/2.

Remington 6 1/2 primer warning

Warning:

Remington does not recommend this primer for use in the 17 Remington, 222 Remington, 223 Remington, 204 Ruger, 17 Remington Fireball.
Use the 7-1/2 Small Rifle Bench Rest primer in these cartridges.
This 6-1/2 Small Rifle primer is primarily designed for use in the 22 Hornet.

[WV1951]

Those primers are not showing you high pressure. They are showing you that your firing pin is too small for the hole in the bolt. End of story.

Thanks, Coach
I stumbled on a year old thread from Texas 10 regarding this very issue and the saga he had trying to work with Savage. Frustrating at best. I watched a video from Gre-Tan on how he sleeves/bushes the firing pin channel to tighten it up. If I can figure out to to get my bolt apart, I am going to try and check the slop.
I have looked at a number of pics and videos and I am cautiously optimistic. The flattish primer still cause a little concern. Obviously, opinions are varied, and I do not have a chrono.

[WV1951]

Thanks, Biged for those nice pics. I am not quite that bad as you can see below. Going to investigate the sloppy firing pin.
Also, should be no slop in headspace. Only using fire formed from my chamber. Not bumping back.

From left to right
Norma factory 55 gr.
Range brass
55gr. 24.2gr. H4895
69gr. 24.4gr. H4895
Un-fired prepped case

Wish I could get sharper pics, but the slight cratering(sloppy pin?) and the flatness does show. Maybe I am being OCD.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g152/mandn1951/IMG_2948_zpsxex2ix23.jpg (http://s55.photobucket.com/user/mandn1951/media/IMG_2948_zpsxex2ix23.jpg.html)
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g152/mandn1951/IMG_2930_zps1cy26ble.jpg (http://s55.photobucket.com/user/mandn1951/media/IMG_2930_zps1cy26ble.jpg.html)

[rjtfroggy]

WV1951, from this group of pictures it appears that your primers are not fully seated and a couple look to be backing out when fired. left to right #1, 3, 4 and # 5 is not fully seated in pocket.
Now it may be the angle of pic. or just my old eyes but if it were me I would clean up the primer pockets real good and use a lot more force and get them to seat fully.
I have used thousands of standard CCI SR primers and have never had a FTF, cratered or pierced one and my load is just shy of being compressed with a 60 gr. Sierra fbhp with a COAL of 2.221.
Another tid bit I personally shoot well over 5000 rounds of center fire each year and use nothing but standard CCI LR or SR primers with out complaints or problems.
I do agree with BigEd and maybe he will see the same thing with this set of pictures that I am seeing.

[WV1951]

rt, the far left is a factory Norma round. Second from left is a piece of range brass I picked up. The others are with my Lee hand prime and they definitely feel seated when I squeeze. I apply pretty good force when seating and still so new enough at this that I don't want to crush them. So your CCI 400's don't have the flat edges like the in the pics enough?

[bigedp51]

Pressure Signs . . . . and what to look for
http://www.larrywillis.com/pressure_signs.html

[WV1951]

Thanks for that link. I has read this previously. I am actually close to three, but maybe between three and four. This is what throws me off. Hodgdon shows 24.0-26.0c and I am at 24.4. Granted for a 12 twist and mine is 9.