"rifle" reciever to pistol question

[squirrel_slayer]

Hello All, been trying to search for the answer to no avail, what i'm looking for is, do you guys know if it's legal to run a rifle reciever in a stock that has been cut behind the pistol grip thus making a rear grip pistol? assuming the OAL is kept to 26+in and the barrel length is 16+ inches. I know it's done frequently with shotguns (stock removed and pistol grip installed) just couldn't find a clear answer on a "rifle"

[foxx]

I think the problem here is not the length... OAL and barrel length is good, but, as I understand it, ATF defines a rifle as something ("something" not their word) as "...designed to be fired from the shoulder." If you remove the shoulder piece from the stock, I believe it falls under "other" which requires NFA registration/regulation or whatever you do with the odd-ball weapons.

i.e., because it no longer is designed to fire from the shoulder, it is not a rifle. That's the kicker , in my book.

[joeb33050]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/which-firearms-are-regulated-under-nfa

Which firearms are regulated under the NFA?

(1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
(2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(5) any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e);
(6) a machinegun;
(7) any silencer (as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and
(8) a destructive device.
[26 U.S.C. 5845; 27 CFR 479.11]
Last
I read this to allow making a rifle with a barrel over 16" long and total length over 26" long; and have been making and shooting such for several years.
Repeated requests to ATF offices for rulings about this have had NO response.
joe b.

[foxx]

^^^and yet, the following is their definiton of a rifle:

Quote:
"2.1.3 Rifle. A rifle is a firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and designed to use the energy of an explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled barrel for each single pull of the trigger.11 A rifle subject to the NFA has a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length."



Judging from Joeb's reported experience and discussions on other forums, the ATF does not answer this question. Perhaps they simply choose not to answer because the law does not address it. They don't want to go on record stating one way or another.

One could argue that if the law does not specify whether it is an NFA item, then it is NOT an NFA item. It probably needs to be registered as a pistol. The Savage "Striker" is a pistol.

[m12lrs]

The original paperwork defines the action as either a rifle or other. If it was purchased as a rifle it.needs to stay a rifle.

How many out there actually keep a copy of the paperwork you fill out when you purchase a gun?

[squirrel_slayer]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/which-firearms-are-regulated-under-nfa

Which firearms are regulated under the NFA?

(1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
(2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(5) any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e);
(6) a machinegun;
(7) any silencer (as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and
(8) a destructive device.
[26 U.S.C. 5845; 27 CFR 479.11]
Last
I read this to allow making a rifle with a barrel over 16" long and total length over 26" long; and have been making and shooting such for several years.
Repeated requests to ATF offices for rulings about this have had NO response.
joe b.

This is how I read it as well. just seeing if others have done the same.

I have recently wanted to get into handgun hunting (all of the thrill of archery hunting without the startup cost/ constant training/conditioning) and I've really seen some nice rear grip savages over the years. I wanted to get into a contender but man those things have gotten pricey! so a rear grip savage would be the cheapest route for me. it would literally only cost me a stock (thinking boyds pro varmint and chop/contour pistol grip in a cool laminate color) then I would just need the barrel. I figure I'd build it off a long action to add some length to get me above 26" then buy a inexpensive take off barrel in say .308 (did savage make factory .338 federal barrels?) then I could chop it to ~14" and thread it, make a radial style brake and pin/weld it to keep it legal. I have a 300WM barrel laying around I could use as well just down load it.

If I get drawn for elk this year I'd really like to give handgun hunting a shot.

[Nor Cal Mikie]

If the OAL is 26" and the barrel length is "at least" 16", it's still a rifle, no matter what it looks like.
Check out the BATF paper dated July 25, 2011. That's what I go by. I keep a copy in my range bag just in case there's ever any questions.
Any measurements shorter than stated and you'll have to deal with the BATF and get yourself a Tax Stamp.
My rear grip SP in built on a Savage Model 10 "lefty" repeater. Right hand has control of the grip and left hand works the bolt and feeds ammo.
That same "lefty" action is used on one of my bench rest rigs. Mounted on a Whidden V Block (as is the SP) and fitted to a "right hand" thumb hole BR style stock.
Two screws and the action is out and ready to be mounted in which ever stock you want. Swap barrels and bolt heads as needed and you're ready to go shooting.

[foxx]

^^^
Okay... responding to m12lrs

Not only do owners not keep original paperwork, but how does it "STAY a RIFLE"? If it is "papered as a rifle", and you change the stock so as to not have a shoulder piece, is it still a rifle because it is a certain length and the paperwork said it was/is a rifle? or does the fact it is no longer a designed to fire from the shoulder make it not a rifle??? i.e. is it a crime to remove the shoulder stock from a rifle if the barreled action and grip has a minimum overall length of 26"???

There is no definitive statement from the ATF, so you better be prepared for a fight if you do it.

I AM NO EXPERT ON ANY OF THIS. MY OPINION ON THE MATTER IS WORTHLESS. I KNOW NOTHING!!!!

I want to think Nor Cal Mikie is correct.

[squirrel_slayer]

On a side note. What parts would one need to convert from RH to Left Hand bolt, right side eject? just the handle maybe the bolt body? or are the LH receivers different?

[foxx]

It's not a simple as replacing parts... I know Fred at Sharp Shooter Supply does those kinds of conversions. I hope to have him do some for me.

[bsekf]

Make sure you meet STATE requirements too.

Bill

[aephilli822]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/which-firearms-are-regulated-under-nfa

Which firearms are regulated under the NFA?

(1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
(2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(5) any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e);
(6) a machinegun;
(7) any silencer (as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and
(8) a destructive device.
[26 U.S.C. 5845; 27 CFR 479.11]
Last
I read this to allow making a rifle with a barrel over 16" long and total length over 26" long; and have been making and shooting such for several years.
Repeated requests to ATF offices for rulings about this have had NO response.
joe b.

^^^and yet, the following is their definiton of a rifle:

Quote:
"2.1.3 Rifle. A rifle is a firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and designed to use the energy of an explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled barrel for each single pull of the trigger.11 A rifle subject to the NFA has a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length."



Judging from Joeb's reported experience and discussions on other forums, the ATF does not answer this question. Perhaps they simply choose not to answer because the law does not address it. They don't want to go on record stating one way or another.

One could argue that if the law does not specify whether it is an NFA item, then it is NOT an NFA item. It probably needs to be registered as a pistol. The Savage "Striker" is a pistol.

If you take your RIFLE and cut the stock, you have # 4 = a weapon MADE FROM A RIFLE

right?
Maybe?

[aephilli822]

it is legal to make a rifle from a pistol, not legal to make a pistol from a rifle (without paying the tax)

[foxx]

If you take your RIFLE and cut the stock, you have # 4 = a weapon MADE FROM A RIFLE

right?
Maybe?

Not if it's overall length is more than 26" which was originally specified as the OP's intent.

[squirrel_slayer]

did some more reading on the atf's web site this afternoon and I can't find anything saying you cant do what I'm wanting to do. I did find that a weapon over 26" oal and 16" barrel (rifle) or 18" (shotgun) yet no stock are classified as a "firearm" the pistol grip only shotguns (as sold from the manufactuer) are "firearms" I was however unable to find if making a "rifle" into a "firearm" was lawful/unlawful

[Caliper]

Once a rifle, always a rifle is the ATF interpretation. This is how taking a rifle receiver and making it into something that would otherwise be called a pistol is a "SBR" and a felony without the proper blessings and taxes, even if there is no longer a shoulder stock.

I'm just wondering WHY? If you've ever fired a pistol grip only shotgun, they're far less useful than than anything with a shoulder stock. I can't see a long bolt action pistol being any more useful. If you're just after something more compact, have you considered a 16" barrel and short LOP stock, or a folding stock?

[squirrel_slayer]

yes I have considered a 16" barrel with a folder, but the bulk of the folder kind of defeats the purpose on a shorty, long rifle yes.

I personally haven't fired a centerfire pistol like one of these but have always liked the concept. my thoughts are I could carry such animal on a chest mounted holster and have it at a arms reach. where i'd be hunting elk is fairly dense terrain and I'd like the oppertunity to actually stalk to my game for the kill. our deer hunting here is very open country and shots to 300+ are the norm. yes still enjoyable but the other does appeal to me as well. probably has alot to do with the stories my co-worker has told me (an avid and **** good bow hunter) says when you can see the whites of their eyes and there there snorting and huffing 10-40 yards away there's nothing else like it. granted they(bow hunts) get to hunt during the rut so i'm sure that plays a big factor.

so in short, I want to get that same or similar experience as a bow hunter yet have enough gun to harvest the animal cleanly and not break the bank in the process.

[Caliper]

yes I have considered a 16" barrel with a folder, but the bulk of the folder kind of defeats the purpose on a shorty, long rifle yes.

Well, thing is, the Feds measure against the 26" OAL in the extended configuration. When folded, or collapsed for a telescoping stock, it is legal to be below 26". Your State law may vary, so double check, but it's something that can shorten things somewhat.

Another thought, have you considered an "AR10" based pistol? If the hunting regs allow it, a 10" barreled .308 should do the job at close range.

[shmelton]

Look at the AR forums on this subject. I may be completely wrong, but I was under the impression you could take a rifle lower and convert it to a pistol legally. But, I am also under the impression that once converted to a pistol you can't convert back to a rifle legally. Then again how would the govt know?
So why would the same apply to a bolt gun, if my interpretation is right?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[squirrel_slayer]

Look at the AR forums on this subject. I may be completely wrong, but I was under the impression you could take a rifle lower and convert it to a pistol legally. But, I am also under the impression that once converted to a pistol you can't convert back to a rifle legally. Then again how would the govt know?
So why would the same apply to a bolt gun, if my interpretation is right?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I read a ruling from the atf 2011-14 or something like that and it's the other way around. you can turn a pistol into a rifle and back as long as in the pistol configuration there is no stock with the pistol barrel, and when in rifle configuration the oal is 26+ and barrel 16+.

I now know I cannot convert from a rifle to a pistol....however what I'm wanting to build would be considered a "firearm" (over 26" oal, and 16" barrel) and that's were the law get's gray