"rifle" reciever to pistol question

[squirrel_slayer]

Well, thing is, the Feds measure against the 26" OAL in the extended configuration. When folded, or collapsed for a telescoping stock, it is legal to be below 26". Your State law may vary, so double check, but it's something that can shorten things somewhat.

Another thought, have you considered an "AR10" based pistol? If the hunting regs allow it, a 10" barreled .308 should do the job at close range.

we can use semi's just have the magazine limit restrictions. a ar10 pistol build is way beyond what I'd want to spend. I could build a 450 bushmaster or 458 socom upper for my SBR lower and go that route, but that just doesn't appeal to me. don't get me wrong a gen II dpms .308 sbr is on the want list (much smaller platform) owned a gen 1 and I did enjoy it.......until I had to feed it. :beaten:

[squirrel_slayer]

Well, thing is, the Feds measure against the 26" OAL in the extended configuration. When folded, or collapsed for a telescoping stock, it is legal to be below 26". Your State law may vary, so double check, but it's something that can shorten things somewhat.

Another thought, have you considered an "AR10" based pistol? If the hunting regs allow it, a 10" barreled .308 should do the job at close range.

we can use semi's just have the magazine limit restrictions. a ar10 pistol build is way beyond what I'd want to spend. I could build a 450 bushmaster or 458 socom upper for my SBR lower and go that route, but that just doesn't appeal to me. don't get me wrong a gen II dpms .308 sbr is on the want list (much smaller platform) owned a gen 1 and I did enjoy it.......until I had to feed it. :beaten:

[Kilroy]

Look at the AR forums on this subject. I may be completely wrong, but I was under the impression you could take a rifle lower and convert it to a pistol legally. But, I am also under the impression that once converted to a pistol you can't convert back to a rifle legally. Then again how would the govt know?
So why would the same apply to a bolt gun, if my interpretation is right?

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You have it backwards. If it started as a pistol then you can convert it to a rifle and then back to a pistol (Thompson court case). If the the receiver was built as a rifle first, it must always stay a rifle unless you do the paperwork/tax/background check to make a SBR or AOW. This is per ATF regs.

[squirrel_slayer]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2011-4-pistols-configured-rifles-rifles-configured-pistols/download

for those who may be interested

[squirrel_slayer]

So I decided after hours of searching and reading it is best to just "ask the man".

Sent a formal letter to the ATF to get the straight answer. I'll report back once I get the answer. I'm sure it will be awhile.

[joeb33050]

Once a rifle, always a rifle is the ATF interpretation. This is how taking a rifle receiver and making it into something that would otherwise be called a pistol is a "SBR" and a felony without the proper blessings and taxes, even if there is no longer a shoulder stock.

I'm just wondering WHY? If you've ever fired a pistol grip only shotgun, they're far less useful than than anything with a shoulder stock. I can't see a long bolt action pistol being any more useful. If you're just after something more compact, have you considered a 16" barrel and short LOP stock, or a folding stock?

Why? My Striker trigger is pretty bad. I shoot only from the bench. My M10 in a shortened stock, even with a 22" barrel, has a good accu trigger and is easy to shoot from the bench. Withg a cut down 16 1/2" barrel it's very manageable. And, a cut down stock and barrel on a later 110 series action is cheap
r and easier to find than a Striker. I've had Competitors, Encores, Strikers and cut downs- I like the ability to change barrels on Strikers/cut downs. That's my why.

joe b.

[aephilli822]

Not if it's overall length is more than 26" which was originally specified as the OP's intent.

Sorry I wasn't clear, my meaning was if you make #4 larger than the dimensions in the statute, NFA doesn't apply. (made from rifle + not smaller than 26" = no tax stamp)

[aephilli822]

Can you buy a receiver that has never been ASSEMBLED into a rifle? It is my understanding that that is how the AR guys do it, straight out of the factory the raw receiver is registered as a pistol.

[squirrel_slayer]

yes nortland shooter supply and others sell stripped receivers but there $450+ for basic receivers and close to $600 for the target models. I can buy complete used rifles for $200 if I keep my eyes open for deals.

got a response from the ATF and they sent me a PDF bible. going to go through it later but it's looking like it's not illegal. grey area for sure but not illegal. what little I did read did mention a rifle to pistol a no go though. (being able to shoot with one hand was their verbage) but what I plan to make by their definition is a firearm which thus far appears to be ok as long as the 26/16 rule is followed.

[shmelton]

After re reading the info I had read on an AR site I realize I had it backwards. You can turn a pistol lower into a rifle, but once a rifle always a rifle.


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[Texas10]

yes nortland shooter supply and others sell stripped receivers but there $450+ for basic receivers and close to $600 for the target models. I can buy complete used rifles for $200 if I keep my eyes open for deals.

got a response from the ATF and they sent me a PDF bible. going to go through it later but it's looking like it's not illegal. grey area for sure but not illegal. what little I did read did mention a rifle to pistol a no go though. (being able to shoot with one hand was their verbage) but what I plan to make by their definition is a firearm which thus far appears to be ok as long as the 26/16 rule is followed.

Is an XP-100 out of the question?

[aephilli822]

looking at the Boyd's stock you mentioned earlier, it looks like it could work. Have you thought about some kind of thumbhole stock? you could leave enough behind the hole to be sure of OAL requirements. (maybe even some kind of "under forearm support" to help steady? think "wrist rocket slingshot" support except under the wrist)

[squirrel_slayer]

looking at the Boyd's stock you mentioned earlier, it looks like it could work. Have you thought about some kind of thumbhole stock? you could leave enough behind the hole to be sure of OAL requirements. (maybe even some kind of "under forearm support" to help steady? think "wrist rocket slingshot" support except under the wrist)

I would be worried about the stock breaking under recoil with the thumbhole stock. there isn't alot of material there if you cut the stock off. also the grip angle may be troublesome. the pro varmint has alot of material to work with and is near verticle. between the two i'm sure I could whittle it to my liking (fingergrooves, thumb shelf, ect...)

as far as the forearm support I think that would be painful or possibly even break something (on me) I would rather let the gun roll with recoil than take all it has to offer to the wrist and forearm. the heaviest recoil from a handgun i've experienced was my 4" blackhawk with a 260 keith and 27gr of H110. if you don't let it roll with recoil it hurts! (took me awhile to learn how to shoot a single action I was trying to lock into it like a service pistol and control the recoil, no bueno!) going to assume a 165gr at 2200-2400 is going to be a pretty big step up in recoil.

[squirrel_slayer]

Is an XP-100 out of the question?

I'd go with a contender before and xp. I really wouldn't mind a contender but they've gotten pricey!

[aephilli822]

I would be worried about the stock breaking under recoil with the thumbhole stock. there isn't alot of material there if you cut the stock off. also the grip angle may be troublesome. the pro varmint has alot of material to work with and is near verticle. between the two i'm sure I could whittle it to my liking (fingergrooves, thumb shelf, ect...)

as far as the forearm support I think that would be painful or possibly even break something (on me) I would rather let the gun roll with recoil than take all it has to offer to the wrist and forearm. the heaviest recoil from a handgun i've experienced was my 4" blackhawk with a 260 keith and 27gr of H110. if you don't let it roll with recoil it hurts! (took me awhile to learn how to shoot a single action I was trying to lock into it like a service pistol and control the recoil, no bueno!) going to assume a 165gr at 2200-2400 is going to be a pretty big step up in recoil.

What I was thinking was cut the stock 2, 3, or 4 inches behind the thumb hole. The support I was envisioning would be under the wrist to counter the weight of the barrel so far out in front of the hand. That way any "muzzle rise" on recoil moves it away (down from) the wrist. I was thinking (what's that smoke smell? LOL) there would be less than normal chance of stock breaking due to it not being butted up against a shoulder. I've seen some neat target stocks with (bondo/wood filler/epoxy?) finger grips molded to the owners hand, with and without thumb holes.
My 308 Striker (no muzzle brake) isn't too bad freehand. (maybe because of the center grip?) But when my buddy got an Encore in 30-06 he was scared to shoot it, so I went first. :o First round I tried to shoot it like a 44 Mag or 454 Casull, by letting it "roll at the elbow" and the hammer almost hit me in the forehead. :black_eyed: So I tried shooting it like a 375 H&H or 458 WM, "rolling at the hips" pretending my (not quite locked) arms were the stock. That worked like a charm. A little give at the elbows and a lot of roll at the hips. :peace:

Hard to put into words, but easy to understand when you see/do it.

[aephilli822]

I'd go with a contender before and xp. I really wouldn't mind a contender but they've gotten pricey!

Strikers are high now, too?

[aephilli822]

Strikers are high now, too?

Wow! Just looked and they are. Saw a 243 on armslist for 500, maybe rebarrel to 358?

[squirrel_slayer]

aephilli822 now I see what your saying. that would likely help shooting off hand but would be kinda hokey looking. lol I don't plan on shooting it free hand unless it's a now or never shot and even then i'd likely do like you were saying with leaning into it letting the body rock with the recoil holding it also by the forearm. ideally i'd plan on shooting it off a shooting stick or off a tree branch. and during development off bags and a bipod.

was reading an article from mike bellm (a big TC gunsmith) and since I have a 300wm barrel laying around anyways I was going to try it first. however using H4895 with reduced loads. in one of his articles he mentioned that a 300wm loaded in this manor would have less felt recoil than a equal velocity .308. reason being was it takes alot more powder in that big case to equal velocity and it does it at less pressure, yet with more gas volume (due to more powder) and the muzzle brake was more efficient due to that effect. now the only bad side is boys will be boys and I could see myself loading up some stupid 200+gr loads over H1000 and letting the testosterone run the show and play the whole dare game with the buddies. lol

if I actually go with a custom barrel I'm leaning one of 3 ways. one would be a .338 federal throated to take advantage of the long action and to keep the bullets out of the case some, thus giving more useable powder capacity. a .358 win has crossed my mind (.338 has greater bullet options or it would be a front runner) and lastly would be a .375 of some sort....why? seems to be the sweet spot for large game from a "specialty handgun"

[handirifle]

I know when I was looking at the TC arms rifle, and questioned pistol stocks, I was told to buy one "as a pistol" and then it was no problem to add a long barrel or stock, but to go the other way was inviting problems as a short barreled rifle. Of course this IS CA.

[squirrel_slayer]

I know when I was looking at the TC arms rifle, and questioned pistol stocks, I was told to buy one "as a pistol" and then it was no problem to add a long barrel or stock, but to go the other way was inviting problems as a short barreled rifle. Of course this IS CA.

that for sure is illegal. reason being is you can't go from a rifle to a pistol, clearly states that in the rules. the difference in my idea is i'm planning on keeping a rifle length barrel 16" and i'm keeping it above 26" oal. with a contender you'd have to have much longer than a 16" barrel to keep the gun over 26" as it's a breech weapon and there isn't much distance from the breech to the rear of the grip. a bolt action however adds quite a bit, especially a long action.