Groups opening up after cleaning...

[Wigglesworth]

So I bought the boys an Axis HB 243 earlier in the year, and have been extatic at how it shoots. So far it's been an honest 1moa gun with several groups inching down twist the 1/2moa mark. To say I was shocked from a sub $300 gun would be an understatement.

I have fed it approx 200rds of various hand loads, with it favoring a 90gr nosler being pushed with 42gr of imr 4350.

While cleaning it over the weekend, I found that the bore was a copper coated mess. So, I go to town with the butches bore cleaner and get it clean as I could get it, followed by a patch of them-oil for rust prevention. I assumed several shots would be all over the place, as that has become the norm with my other savage centerfires, but good lord, I'm 40 rounds into it and nothing will group. It did show some promise going back to the 90gr noslers, but at 1.1" for a 5 shot group, knowing how they normally shoot, is unacceptable.

So frustrated as I was, and with impending rain, I pack up and head back to the house. Now, mind you, I had the barrel spotless before hand, yet now every grove is completely coated with copper, and there is even some sticking on top of the lands. Way worse than before cleaning.

So I suppose my question is this, should I clean it all out again and start over, or keep shooting and hoping it will settle down? Anybody else have the same experience?

Here is a Pre-cleaning group of the 90gr noslers. The center dot is 3/4" for reference...
2464

Here is a 10 shot group Pre-cleaning of 85gr game kings behind iirc, 38gr of Varget. The flier was my fault...


2465

I'll post today's groups in a few...

[Wigglesworth]

And today's patterns...er...I mean groups, along with the others.

2466

[Wigglesworth]

I figured I'd add I cleaned from the chamber to the muzzle and not the other way around, for anybody who would think crown damage.

Crown is still perfect.

[NicfromAlabama]

I don't know what to say. I would have thought it would settle down after 5 to 10 shots. I would be more inclined to believe something is wrong with your scope, rings or base.

[Wigglesworth]

I don't know what to say. I would have thought it would settle down after 5 to 10 shots. I would be more inclined to believe something is wrong with your scope, rings or base.

That was my thoughts as well.

Bases and rings are steel, rings were lapped prior to installing scope. Scope is a Nikon pro staff 4x12-40. If this rain will stop, I'm thinking of just buying a box or two of cheap stuff just to shoot in th dirt and help foul this thing back out. Heck, it shot better than this when it was brand new....

[darkker]

Well I have a few thoughts, but how helpful they are....
You didn't give a velocity for your loads, or say what 90gr bullet specifically. Given your charge weight, is a safe bet that is essentially max. Also assuming because the 85's were a game King, that the Nosler is a partition?
The partition is the shortest of the 90gr.

Max loads rarely give the best accuracy, and at max, that bullet is only marginally stable, at best.
So what I'm wondering, is if the fouling is a herring to your problem....
So you are on the ragged edge of stability, but it worked. You get to cleaning, the weather changes. It cools off, humidity goes way up, now the bullets won't stabilize like before. You think it's because of the barrel, but the weather is your culprit I think.

[schnyd112]

The first thing I would do is test the scope on a different rifle. Could be total coincidence that it happened after cleaning and if it is a scope issue you will be chasing your tail.

I always get a little tingly when I hear of guys going to town barrels. Solvents should be used to remove copper, each time you pass a rod through the barrel there is a chance for something to go wrong.

Also, does butches have an abrasive in it or is that just the bore shine?

[Wigglesworth]

Well I have a few thoughts, but how helpful they are....
You didn't give a velocity for your loads, or say what 90gr bullet specifically. Given your charge weight, is a safe bet that is essentially max. Also assuming because the 85's were a game King, that the Nosler is a partition?
The partition is the shortest of the 90gr.

Max loads rarely give the best accuracy, and at max, that bullet is only marginally stable, at best.
So what I'm wondering, is if the fouling is a herring to your problem....
So you are on the ragged edge of stability, but it worked. You get to cleaning, the weather changes. It cools off, humidity goes way up, now the bullets won't stabilize like before. You think it's because of the barrel, but the weather is your culprit I think.

Guess I needed to specify. The load it favors (favored) was indeed max load. 90gr Nosler #24090. Midway list them at 1.071", but im not at home to verify. The box says ballistic tip/hunting. I will Load some on the lower end of the scale if no improvement next range session. I do not own a chronograph, so it would just be a guess, but the nosler book shows around 3200. Humidity was indeed up. That said, it still shot this load excellent when it was brand new. My neighbor came down (long time shooter/handloader) and said the same thing about the weather. Said he won't shoot in unfavorable weather. Maybe I should listen to the more seasoned veterans.

[Wigglesworth]

The first thing I would do is test the scope on a different rifle. Could be total coincidence that it happened after cleaning and if it is a scope issue you will be chasing your tail.

I always get a little tingly when I hear of guys going to town barrels. Solvents should be used to remove copper, each time you pass a rod through the barrel there is a chance for something to go wrong.

Also, does butches have an abrasive in it or is that just the bore shine?

I will do that. Just seemed kinda odd last Wednesday it shot lights out and today wouldn't put two bullets together to save my life.

And it was the bore shine. No abrasive, just a strong ammonia smell. Wife didn't like it one bit. Lol

[schnyd112]

ok. Maybe it's the bore paste that has an abrasive in it. I could also be totally off on that aspect. I use Montana extreme copper killer, let it sit for 10 min and wipe out. Strong ammonia smell but it did wonders on a .220 swift barrel. with my current bartlein though I have not been able to pull a blue patch since the first 10 rounds.

The problem could easily be more involved, but at least the scope is easy to check and can keep you from lots of unnecessary frustration.

[Wigglesworth]

ok. Maybe it's the bore paste that has an abrasive in it. I could also be totally off on that aspect. I use Montana extreme copper killer, let it sit for 10 min and wipe out. Strong ammonia smell but it did wonders on a .220 swift barrel. with my current bartlein though I have not been able to pull a blue patch since the first 10 rounds.

The problem could easily be more involved, but at least the scope is easy to check and can keep you from lots of unnecessary frustration.

Frustration is an understatement!! Lol.

And the weather isn't going to cooperate for a couple days it looks like. :(

[jo2015]

after putting the oil in the bore, did you run some patches through it to get the oil out before shooting?i always do,may just be me

[NicfromAlabama]

If you are confident the scope/base/rings are OK, just shoot it some more. The only variable is that you cleaned the barrel. I have a coworker that has had a Savage 30-06 for years, and is a fanatical deer hunter. He is a bit of a character, but he has NEVER cleaned his rifle. Granted his firearms looks like crap, but they still shoot well enough to kill deer.

[Wigglesworth]

If you are confident the scope/base/rings are OK, just shoot it some more. The only variable is that you cleaned the barrel. I have a coworker that has had a Savage 30-06 for years, and is a fanatical deer hunter. He is a bit of a character, but he has NEVER cleaned his rifle. Granted his firearms looks like crap, but they still shoot well enough to kill deer.

I'm fairly confidant they are, but am going to pull it down and check it over when I get home. I did have it out of the stock, so I'm going to give it a good once over when I get home. But Ive had it out a million times before, but maybe I overlooked something.

[Texas10]

I'm fairly confidant they are, but am going to pull it down and check it over when I get home. I did have it out of the stock, so I'm going to give it a good once over when I get home. But Ive had it out a million times before, but maybe I overlooked something.

Think you just hit the nail on the head. How did you torque the action screws, and how much torque?

Might check under the rear tang and make sure it's not contacting the stock. Perhaps it was installed just a fraction out of position compared to previous installation.

Here's the torque tuning link: http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/savage-action-screw-torque-tuning/

[30-06shooter]

some rifles shoot better after fouling the barrel. i use a box of cheap ammo to foul mine after cleaning. shoot til my groups loosen up, clean and repeat. I have gone through more than 100 rounds before having to clean.

[Wigglesworth]

Hmmm....how did that get in there....

2475

I can definitely say that this was sandwiched between the action and pillar. It's a piece of plastic trash from the stock evidently...

2476

It was raining this morning so I only got in one 5 shot group of some less than favorable ammo. 4 were under an inch and one flier. Supposed to be dry but cold tomorrow, but I think I'll tough it out and give it another go in the morning.

[NicfromAlabama]

That's very compelling evidence. Hopefully, that takes care of it.

[Wigglesworth]

That's very compelling evidence. Hopefully, that takes care of it.

I first slid a dollar bill between the barrel and stock, and it kinda rubbed which surprised me. When I popped the barreled action from the stock it was laying right behind the recoil lug, but it was obviously smashed by the pillar due to the semi circle impression left in it.


Fingers crossed...

[Wigglesworth]

Well, that was the problem. :)

Here is the 90gr load, my "go to".

2479

And here's a new load I am working on. 70gr nosler with Varget.

2480

I gotta do something more with this trigger though. 3.5# is just still too much.