Choosing a caliber

[handirifle]

Well first off your post is full of contradictions. First very few rounds possess the power to "knock down" a deer. A central nervous system hit from a 22 will "knock down" a deer, so that is a poor choice of what to look for. You can read stories from books like "40 years with the 45-70" where loads of 400gr bullets at 2000fps were not successful at "knocking down" deer. The author got pass through shots in the vitals, and still was not happy because the deer ran off.

Second, ANY of the calibers you mentioned are more than capable of killing deer consistently, when using proper bullets. That said, even the 308, with "improper" bullets might not kill a deer.

If you want a caliber that will have more REAL effect on a deer sized animal, then you should look at some like the 350 Win or 338 Federal. Either of these will be more effective in the type of hunting you mention.

Lastly, getting a lot of impact energy, and having light recoil, are contradictory terms. That's like saying I want a drag race car, that wins all the time, but is very cheap to build. Ain't gonna happen.

Having said all that, I would go with the 308, for power, availability, and bullet selection, and get a good recoil pad.

[handirifle]

If you get a 30-06 used, and want less recoil, then swap barrels to a 308, it will feed fine, and you can load it as long as you want if the need arises. There's a ton of enemy soldiers that were 900+ yds away that will attest to the 308's effectiveness, well their fellow soldiers will.

The 30-06 can be loaded down to '08 levels, but you would have to find an accurate load. Sometimes reduced loads are not as accurate. That said, there are factory reduced recoil loads for the '06 and '08.

I killed a nice muley some years back at 180yds with a reduced 308 load from a 20" barrel. He ran 50yds and died. Bullet entered a little farther back (he took a half step when I fired) than I wanted, but hit liver, and clipped one lung.

[thatguyshm]

Well first off your post is full of contradictions. First very few rounds possess the power to "knock down" a deer. A central nervous system hit from a 22 will "knock down" a deer, so that is a poor choice of what to look for. You can read stories from books like "40 years with the 45-70" where loads of 400gr bullets at 2000fps were not successful at "knocking down" deer.

If you want a caliber that will have more REAL effect on a deer sized animal, then you should look at some like the 350 Win or 338 Federal. Either of these will be more effective in the type of hunting you mention.



Just to throw it out there to stir the pot, I took a medium body, big racked deer this year with a 338 Fed, at 130 yards, boiler room shot quartering slightly towards me, and he still made it 50 yards.

180gr Accubond moving at 2735 at the muzzle. It did blow a three inch sized chunk of lung through the entrance though. ;)

No bang flop but he wasn't using his front leg I just snuck the shot behind, without too much damage to the front quarter meat wise.

[JASmith]

Why not simply use factory reduced recoil loads or load you own 110 - 130 gr bullets. Classic cup andcore bullets in this weight class are excellent deer harvesters.

Lead-free versions in this weight class have about the same effectiveness on game animals as do the classic 165 gr cup and core bullet..

That way, one can get even less recoil than with the .308 and still have the power of the '06.


If you get a 30-06 used, and want less recoil, then swap barrels to a 308, it will feed fine, and you can load it as long as you want if the need arises. There's a ton of enemy soldiers that were 900+ yds away that will attest to the 308's effectiveness, well their fellow soldiers will.

The 30-06 can be loaded down to '08 levels, but you would have to find an accurate load. Sometimes reduced loads are not as accurate. That said, there are factory reduced recoil loads for the '06 and '08.

I killed a nice muley some years back at 180yds with a reduced 308 load from a 20" barrel. He ran 50yds and died. Bullet entered a little farther back (he took a half step when I fired) than I wanted, but hit liver, and clipped one lung.

[handirifle]

Actually with the Barnes bullets, you can go light for caliber and be as effective. For example, the 130 TTSX will penetrate as well as a 150-160 class cup and core bullets. The reason is of weight retention. A lead core bullet will typically lose 50% of it's weight, or more on a large deer. Take a 165gr bullet, that is starting at impact, and when it exits, if it does, it will be at least 82gr. Even if it's 100gr when exiting, the monolithic bullet will be about 99%. That's because it loses it's tip, if it had one. Even impacting large bones it will usually weigh 80% or more of original weight. For a 130gr that is 104gr, so it will on it's worst case weigh what a 165gr would, and on average will weigh more. A lead core bullet will lose energy faster as weight bleeds off as well.

Monolithic bullets do have draw backs. One is impact min velocities are usually higher, but that does vary by bullet and design. For example leveraction bullets will open as low as lead core bullets will, because they have huge hollow points and wide meplats. On average a bullet like a TTSX will have a min of 2000-2100fps, to perform properly. But when you factor in going light for caliber, that becomes less of an issue. When a 30-06 starts out at 3300-3400fps with a 130gr TTSX, it is a solid 500yd deer slayer (at 3300fps).

Likewise a 168gr TTSX with a BC of .470 loaded to top speed of around 2900, retains more than enough energy for a 500yd elk shot, using 1500ft lb as a minimum.

[handirifle]

Why not simply use factory reduced recoil loads or load you own 110 - 130 gr bullets. Classic cup andcore bullets in this weight class are excellent deer harvesters.

Lead-free versions in this weight class have about the same effectiveness on game animals as do the classic 165 gr cup and core bullet..

That way, one can get even less recoil than with the .308 and still have the power of the '06.

Sorry, I miss read your comment. We are saying the same thing it seems.

[RC20]

I think you are over thinking this, you don't really seem to know what you want.

Now its up to a 30-06.

You have to live on the far side of the moon if you can't drive 40 miles and get ammot.

You want low recoil, then its 243 or the 6.5.

By 5 boxes of ammo. Buy 10. Best of course buy 3 different mfg boxes, find out which shoots the best and then buy 10 of them.

Each time use up a box, buy a box.



I am a bit more inclined to 6.5 for a couple of reasons.

I can go longer, it is a solidly established now and wildly popular and is going to a mainstay for the future.

Forget the 7mm-08. It does the same thing a 308 does.

I have not problems with being interested and shooting it, its just a repeat and if the goal is hunting then the standards are the better ones and will always be there.

308 is less bump that an 30-06, but you really need to make up your mind.

It seems used guns is the driver not recoil but have yet to figure that out from the post.

A reduced load of 30-06 (or any caliber) has less power. Its not magic, you don't get something for less.

Same with 308.

[Robinhood]

Howa 1500/Weatherby Vanguard 7MM-08 or 308. For a guy that hunts and believes his rifle is a tool not a toy the Japanese rifle deserves a look. If you plan on changing the trigger and barrel one day or even a different sized cartridge then the savage may be the best bet. Not that that can't be done on the Howa but it is a little more expensive. The Howa trigger is nice though. I'm waiting for Howa to put a Nut on their Barrels!

[Mozella]

Howa 1500/Weatherby Vanguard 7MM-08 or 308. For a guy that hunts and believes his rifle is a tool not a toy the Japanese rifle deserves a look. If you plan on changing the trigger and barrel one day or even a different sized cartridge then the savage may be the best bet. Not that that can't be done on the Howa but it is a little more expensive. The Howa trigger is nice though. I'm waiting for Howa to put a Nut on their Barrels!

Plus one on the Howa. Most of my rifles are Savages, but one is a Howa 1500 and it's BY FAR the better looking. It looks like it should cost four times the rather crude Savages. The look and feel, especially when you work the bolt, is much nicer with the Howa.

Of course cost is always a factor and you won't find as many stock options for the Howa. Even scope mounting hardware is more limited. But there are enough choices to satisfy most people.

[flangster]

I went through this decision tree about three years ago. I think everyone does at some point. I wound up with a Winchester Model 70 Featherweight in .270. What clinched it for me was the way that rifle pointed for me. It just felt natural. And I think that for purchase of this sort of tool, you really have to see how one fits you. You have access to the internet, which means that you can buy the actual rifle, once you find what fits, from anywhere and you can certainly buy enough hunting ammo of any type you choose for one or 10 seasons, even with NY's current restrictions.

I look at this more from a perspective of what you have in battery and what would get you a different set of capabilities, or expand your battery, if you will. You already have the only deer-harvesting machine you would ever need in that .270. But that is a boring answer, I know, and I also know the itch to try something new. First I would consider what your typical deer shot is, in terms of range. You live in the Northeast, like I do, so I am guessing that your maximum distance, realistically, is about 400 yards. This ain't Montana, and if you could afford to go there for your 1000 yard shots on mule deer, then these other problems of what to buy wouldn't bother you: you'd just get 'em all. ;)

If recoil is your issue, then I think you need to go milder than the .270, not hotter. This is .308 and 7mm-08, .243 and so on, not the 30-06 (parent case of your current .270 chambering), which while it has all the wonderful versatility and range that folks have stated above is essentially the same cartridge as the .270 with a bigger bullet. It doesn't solve the right problem for you: you can shoot farther and hit harder than your .270, but those don't seem to be the problems you said you are trying to solve. It is a duplication in battery, rather than adding a new set of abilities, unless there are a lot of 400+ yard shots that you wished you could take but can't. And btw, if that is true, maybe you need more scope on your existing rifle rather than a new rifle as the .270 does just fine at those longer distances.

So, what new cool stuff to get? My cool new rifle is a .260, but I mostly shoot from a bench. I do find that it, or its near-twin the 6.5x55 Swede, are really wonderfully accurate and quite mild compared to my .270. The 6.5 Creedmoore - same same on paper, but I haven't shot it, so can't say from personal experience.

The Savages are wonderful shooters. 10, 11, 12, 16 -- are really the same action, with the number denoting a change in material (blue steel or stainless), barrel contour, or in stock choice.

10= heavy barrel tactical (maybe a few exceptions)
11= sporter
12= varmint
14= classic
16= stainless

Once again these are tradeoffs. That Winchester Model 70 I mentioned has a wood stock and is light for all-day carry. But a light stock also means more felt recoil (physics) so consider how you will actually use the rifle. Savage's budget stocks are unreinforced plastic -- lighter but with more flex (a trade off that many, many hunters have happily made). But budget is budget and you can't get something for nothing. You can check the classifieds here for used stocks -- they pop up here with some frequency. A step up from pure plastic is Savage's Accustock, which has an aluminum bedding block and pillars. More rigid. I quite like them from the bench but they would be heavier to carry. And then there are the laminates -- more dimensionally stable than pure wood, but also on the heavy side. Once again, you pays your money and takes your chances. Only you can say whether carrying a 8-lb rig with scope is more comfortable than an 11-lb rig with less felt recoil. Google "Chuck Hawks" site for good, practical discussions of these issues.

My rifles tend to be Savages and CZ's, so I am biased as to brand. What I like about Savage is the ready market for aftermarket barrels, triggers, stocks and so on. But then, I like to tinker. All my Savages have been superbly accurate out of the box and my only critique of their design philosophy is that they are on the heavy side. But a great value, no question. And hey, I post and read here, so you know how I would vote. However, if you don't like to tinker, or are just a buy-it/shoot-it guy I think the brand matters less. Fit matters, though, so see which of these rifles "feels right" to you. You wouldn't spend $700 on a new pair of boots or a suit without trying it/them on, would you?

So: if I was going to give my personal recommendation based on your original post, I would buy a Savage 11 in .260 Remington or 6.5 Creedmore in a plain jane plastic stock. You'd have a lighter rig that was "hunting accurate" and which would not duplicate the ballistics of your existing .270. That said the .308 is also a fine choice. Nothing wrong with it. The .260 will be a bit milder though. Over time I have wound up with Savage barrels in all these calibers and tinker from the bench.

Funny story about that. So I mentioned above that the Model 70 in .270 was my first centerfire big-boy rifle and I was at the range doing some testing. Man, that thing was all over the lot. Three inch groups at 100 yards. Four inch groups at 100 yards. The first two shots would be touching and the the third, fourth, fifth and six shots would just be any old where. Man, I was sure that thing was capital D defective. So I sent it back to Olin for testing. Targets come back and they look like they come from a slick magazine ad. Hmmm. So I call up Olin and ask them about their test procedure. "How long do you wait between shots?" I asked. There was a pause. "About half an hour. . . ." Shoot, I'd been touching that thing off like it was my 10-22. And that pencil barrel was getting too hot to touch. The moral? There's a learning curve to all this stuff and we are all somewhere on it. Good luck with your choice, and let us know what you went with.

[RC20]

That is the truth.

When all is said and done, I would have done fine with 30-06 when I was hunting. My brother had a 7mm and liked it so I got one as well.

The funny part was that the one time I got to use its range, I didn't trust it and aimed too high.

30-06 would have dropped the Moose, the 7mm just grazed the top of the back, split the skin, you could see the bone.

1/8 inch lower and it would have dropped like a rock. We got it but that turned into a classic (or not so classic) story.

[JASmith]

Sorry, I miss read your comment. We are saying the same thing it seems.
We are using different language to say the same thing! That helps others get a grasp on the value of monolithic bullets.

The main thing is that the nominal 30% weight reduction in weight of bullet for similar wound channel area makes a huge difference in recoil. The recoil reduction, in turn, makes good shot placement easier and favors more reliable harvesting of game.