newbie with 12FV, so many questions...

[upinthehills]

I started shooting this year after meaning to get around to it for a few decades, LOL. I have a 14 year old son now and we enjoy target shooting together. We started with a Savage Model 19 NRA target rifle from about 1940. Really enjoyed using the peep site and astounded how accurate they can be, but lots of practice required just to learn to "see" what you are shooting at. I like "old school", it's a great education :-)

Fast forward a bit and now I am an eager owner of a new Cabella's 12FV in 308. Not sure I meant to come home with a gun that day, but here we are. In general I am surprised how complicated these decisions are, but I will assume that is just adding to the fun. I have not shot this yet, still figuring out what I have and what to go with it.

I have 2 areas of questions just to start. I have read tons of stuff here but things are still a little hazy for this beginner.

My first question is about what exactly I have. I favored this over the Cabella's 10T initially because I thought the Model 12 would have a heavier duty action compared to other 10 based models. I see now after further reading here though that this gun does not have a large shank barrel, but it is 26". Is this really a Model 10 action? I understand it is not a Model 12 full target action with a little single shot ejector port, but I was hoping the ejection port would be smaller than a Model 10 and perhaps a thicker action in general. It appears it takes the same scope bases though so perhaps my hopes were optimistic?

My intent is to mount an SWFA 12x42 mil/mil scope for target shooting, 100-300 yards to start. This scope has a 49.5 mm bell diameter, so let's call it 50mm. I need to raise it 0.4" (10 mm) and then a little more for clearance. My barrel has about 0.15" (3.81 mm) drop 6" out from the action.

I see the rings are specified for how high they are, but so far I don't see a spec for the height provided by the rails, EGW for instance. The pictures even show different heights :confused:. The Burris Sig Zee medium are 0.18" and high are 0.3". So 0.15" and 0.18" gives me 0.33", will an EGW rail give me enough to clear?

[darkker]

1) My first question is about what exactly I have. I favored this over the Cabella's 10T initially because I thought the Model 12 would have a heavier duty action compared to other 10 based models. I see now after further reading here though that this gun does not have a large shank barrel, but it is 26".
2) Is this really a Model 10 action? I understand it is not a Model 12 full target action with a little single shot ejector port, but I was hoping the ejection port would be smaller than a Model 10 and perhaps a thicker action in general.
3) It appears it takes the same scope bases though so perhaps my hopes were optimistic?
4) My intent is to mount an SWFA 12x40 mil/mil scope for target shooting, 100-300 yards to start. This scope has a 49.5 mm bell diameter, so let's call it 50mm. I need to raise it 0.4" (10 mm) and then a little more for clearance. My barrel has about 0.15" (3.81 mm) drop 6" out from the action.
5) I see the rings are specified for how high they are, but so far I don't see a spec for the height provided by the rails, EGW for instance. The pictures even show different heights :confused:. The Burris Sig Zee medium are 0.18" and high are 0.3". So 0.15" and 0.18" gives me 0.33", will an EGW rail give me enough to clear?

Greetings.
1) Jump to the Savage website for the "codes" but "F" stands for a synthetic stock, and from memory, the "V" is a varmint set-up. In any case, up on the top left in the FAQ section you can see the differences, but the actions aren't "Heavier duty" than one another. Some variations are smaller ejection port, etc. but the fundamental action is the same.
2) You bought it, tell us what you have. ;) I don't know why it wouldn't be a model 10, with one set of "accessories" or another.
3) Again, they aren't fundamentally different. So I don't know if optimistic, or perhaps under informed is the case.
4) I'm confused here, if you are talking about the fixed 12*40mm then it is a 40mm objective, not 50. The outside is in fact larger, but things are described by the glass, so just assume a 40mm.
5) This is a little vague, and there are plenty of "Calculators" if you use your Google-Fu. Here is what I can tell you. On a Marlin X7 which takes the same Savage small shank barrels, I have a full bull barrel. I have the factory supplied short weaver base, and Primary Arms "low" rings on it. That rifle has a 44mm objective scope on it, and clears no problem even with scope caps. Most decent companies will let you return products, so if the bases are the wrong size just return for the correct. Again it depends upon what bases and rings you use.

While you didn't specifically mention it, but typically comes up in conversation. Don't worry about any canted, or increased MOA base. For that short of a distance you are perfectly fine.

[Breeze]

Just mounted a 50mm scope on my 12fv, I used a egw 20moa rail and med burris sig zee series rings ,worked out perfect .
There's about 70 thousandths clearance between barrel and scope bell

[Wide Glide]

I don't really like the egw bases for savage because with the place I set my scope the front bell hits the front of the rail if I don't hack a bit off the rail. That is using any of the swfa fixed power scopes and low swfa rings. I've since started buying the $57 NF rail and dont have the same issue.

Higher rings would have fixed the issue but then I would have needed a add on cheek rest to line up on it.

As for actions the easy way to look at it is 10,11,12,16 are all pretty much the same action with a different finish and bolt cosmetics.

The actions that are actually different are the pta and possibly the lrp.

I think that's correct

[upinthehills]

Thank you for your answers, they have been a big help. I'll keep this thread going as I figure this stuff out. I spent hours on the Savage web site trying to understand these things, but it turns out that only partly prepares you for going into a big box store where they get their own custom models. I bought this at Cabela's, but I was in a Dick's Sporting goods and they also appeared to have special models. So I was going to go back there and do some more looking, it is nearby.

Wide Glide, I placed my order about 5 minutes before I saw your comment, but you reminded me that SWFA (swfa.com) sold their own rings so I put in a second order for them. They didn't have the Burris rings in short. I actually landed up calling SWFA this morning because I saw something else that concerned me on my order and I would like to say they were *very* helpful. The nice lady told me she would walk out back and repackage my 2 orders into one box and credit me the extra shipping. I chose their scope because it seems to have a reputation for being extremely reliable with a focus on that reliability more than features. One review said you could put it in your freezer and then drop it on a cement floor and it would hold it's zero, he actually did this :o.

Breeze, I used those numbers to figure out the heights and it looks like the Burris (sig) zee low rings would fit fine.

Darkker, thanks for the extra long answer. I will try to figure out what I have. I see now after spending more time looking at rails last night that they make a distinction for "F-Class" as opposed to other Model 10 style Savage rifles. I also see Savage "target actions" for sale at some of the web sites. My guess right now is that they only come in Model 12 rifles, but not all Model 12 rifles have these actions? I can't tell yet if "target action" only applies to single shot versions or if they include magazine versions too. I have seen target actions for sale that take a magazine but maybe they are standard Model 10 units? I am sure this confusion comes from the Savage marketing dept. not the engineers, sigh.

I know that at my skill level these things don't make a difference, but I still want to understand all this. In general an action that didn't have a big hole for a magazine would be stronger and stiffer. So I don't know if it's fundamentally different or not, but it is different. In my mind, an action that was made from thicker metal would be basically the same, use the same parts etc., but would be stronger while still being fundamentally the same.

Wide Glide, does "pta" mean Palma Target Action? What does Palma mean?

[RC20]

Welcome to Savages.

Some details and some personal view in the following

I have a 12FV, deliverate choice over the 10T.I like the 10T,but I wanted one that had the segmented nut and I like the top bolt release. I may get a 10T eventually.

You do not have a large nut, yours is normal, its just segmented. Large nuts are on the Short magnums, some magnums now? Others more in the know there.

If you get a different barrel for it, you need to be sure as the barrels do not cross fit between the regular and large shanks.

12FV has an advantage inmy opinion in that it’s a blind magazine andyou can get a stock that is sturdier for that (at least without more partsswaps)

I went with the Laminated, particularly lly the Thumb Hole as I like them and I think they shoot targetbetter (that’s me and an opinion)

Boyds is the best, I did get an EABCO, its working now but the Boyds are a very good fit, no need to bed( at least until you get under 3/8 consistently then thatdoes start to matter as do a lot of other finer factors)

Also keep in mind, until or unless you are a really good shooter,the gun will almost certainly shoot betterthan you can.I prove that all too often.

You also have a good start with the Acut trigger in that gun it’s a varmint type so you can adjustit down to 1.5 lbs.

Try as is, the blade may feel odd but I use it as a two stage trigger. Don’t be the least bit afraid to take it out of the stock and adjust as much as it allows. Easy to do (yellow tool) and very good and consistant .

I like the acutrigger and while I know its not quite up in theTimney etc class, as its paid for and its more than close enough for me I have no plans to change that.

My take (opinion) is you can get close to a single loader rigidity with a Boyds (or composite if you like them) stock and a rail mount with the blind magazine and solid bottom as a stiffener.

While I have not got the consistant yet, I have shot a fair number of ½ MOA and under. Some 4 into 1 hole and someplace in a string of 5 I muck it up.

The only downside to the gun is the cheap stock and that a trade off for what you pay for it. ,Boyds are not all that costly relatively speaking. Good composites more so

Savage barrels seem to have a quality variance but mine does seem to be at least 5/8 MOA capable. I think for sure under 3/4 though some poor barrels do get through.

Some comments on rough Savage barrels, mine is not, you can tell with the cleaning if it hangs up. Harder to clean, no data as to if they are poorer shooters.

I am just getting back to the Varmint barrel I got on my 12FV, , I had a Bull come in that I wanted to try so the Varmint got set aside (and I learned how to shoot better with the bulll)

As for the peeps. Don’t overthink them. Put the front sight on the target and forget trying to keep it centered in the peep.What you will find is its just naturally centers up right I you let it.

I shoot Model of 1917s, I have shot some 1.5 inch groups at 100 with them. Not as consistent as I want but also have poor older eyes, the peep is the only iron I can shoot.

I tried to do all with the centering etc and found just put the front blade on the bottom of the ball and it will do the rest.

[Breeze]

Thank you for your answers, they have been a big help. I'll keep this thread going as I figure this stuff out. I spent hours on the Savage web site trying to understand these things, but it turns out that only partly prepares you for going into a big box store where they get their own custom models. I bought this at Cabela's, but I was in a Dick's Sporting goods and they also appeared to have special models. So I was going to go back there and do some more looking, it is nearby.

Wide Glide, I placed my order about 5 minutes before I saw your comment, but you reminded me that SWFA (swfa.com) sold their own rings so I put in a second order for them. They didn't have the Burris rings in short. I actually landed up calling SWFA this morning because I saw something else that concerned me on my order and I would like to say they were *very* helpful. The nice lady told me she would walk out back and repackage my 2 orders into one box and credit me the extra shipping. I chose their scope because it seems to have a reputation for being extremely reliable with a focus on that reliability more than features. One review said you could put it in your freezer and then drop it on a cement floor and it would hold it's zero, he actually did this :o.

Breeze, I used those numbers to figure out the heights and it looks like the Burris (sig) zee low rings would fit fine.

Darkker, thanks for the extra long answer. I will try to figure out what I have. I see now after spending more time looking at rails last night that they make a distinction for "F-Class" as opposed to other Model 10 style Savage rifles. I also see Savage "target actions" for sale at some of the web sites. My guess right now is that they only come in Model 12 rifles, but not all Model 12 rifles have these actions? I can't tell yet if "target action" only applies to single shot versions or if they include magazine versions too. I have seen target actions for sale that take a magazine but maybe they are standard Model 10 units? I am sure this confusion comes from the Savage marketing dept. not the engineers, sigh.

I know that at my skill level these things don't make a difference, but I still want to understand all this. In general an action that didn't have a big hole for a magazine would be stronger and stiffer. So I don't know if it's fundamentally different or not, but it is different. In my mind, an action that was made from thicker metal would be basically the same, use the same parts etc., but would be stronger while still being fundamentally the same.

Wide Glide, does "pta" mean Palma Target Action? What does Palma mean?

heres a good calculator ,you can change the values to read in inches if you need to http://www.mil-rad.com/scope_ring_calculator

[Wide Glide]

Precision target action

[WV1951]

OP, might want to check first line in your second paragraph and correct the 10FV to 12FV. It may be(actually is) a bit confusing to readers not familiar with the Savage model numbers.

[upinthehills]

Thanks WV, I fixed that. Somehow what comes out of my fingers isn't always what I mean to type anymore.


RC20:

You do not have a large nut, yours is normal, its just segmented. Large nuts are on the Short magnums, some magnums now? Others more in the know there.

If you get a different barrel for it, you need to be sure as the barrels do not cross fit between the regular and large shanks.

I agree, I was thinking the large nut and shank would be on some of the target actions but don't know yet. Some of the LRP models clearly have that action with the small oval ejection port. I think they look nice.


12FV has an advantage inmy opinion in that it’s a blind magazine andyou can get a stock that is sturdier for that (at least without more partsswaps)

Boyds is the best, I did get an EABCO, its working now but the Boyds are a very good fit, no need to bed( at least until you get under 3/8 consistently then thatdoes start to matter as do a lot of other finer factors)

Interesting point on the stronger stock. A wood stock is high on my list, I don't know - just feel an affection for them.

Forgot the varmint models have their own Accutrigger. I did adjust it all the way down, but can't measure it. It seems reasonable without being too light for a beginner like me.

I cleaned the barrel today and it feels smooth. The scope and hardware are due on Weds., but I think I'll spend some time just shooting a few rounds and cleaning it to get started this weekend. I'll search here for breaking in the barrel.


I shoot Model of 1917s, I have shot some 1.5 inch groups at 100 with them. Not as consistent as I want but also have poor older eyes, the peep is the only iron I can shoot.


My better groups are that good. Seems usually I do better towards the beginning of a session. It's a little harder to get the elevation right. For better or worse I did file down my front sight just a bit. It used to be about .065" and now it's probably more like .055"-.050". That did seem to help, but I'm so new at this I'm probably getting better anyway.

I think starting with the iron sights has been very good for me. It really makes you work at it.

[RC20]

Do look at the Laminates. They may not appeal to you but they are pretty solid as far as being close to a composite in that they don't change with humidty levels. I have mine in different colors so I associate the Caliber with the color.

Kind of funny, when I was growing up to start with there were no scopes.

My dad got one in a Lottery of some kind (Redfield of course) and got it mounted on his 06 Sporter.

I never shot that gun with the scope, I did my moms 270 with irons and 22s a lot.

I can't see the irons on a pistol for good shooting now either, drats.

[upinthehills]

Is it possible for a mod to correct the title of this thread to say "12FV" instead of "10FV"? I tried but can't do it.

OK, talked me into checking out the laminates. It's just nothing in my "education" has prepared me for that, Jimmy Stewart, John Wayne, Davy Crockett and F-Troop. :-)

I cleaned the gun and then went to the range with my son, we put a dozen rounds thru it and then came home and cleaned it again. First cleaning was 10 patches which gradually became less grey. First was pretty dirty, I suppose. Later that night I ran another dry patch thru and it had just a little green on it. The cleaning after the range was pretty dirty, just 12 rounds and much dirtier than the first cleaning. I used Hoppes #9 and then some Hoppes Bench Rest. The second patch after the Bench Rest came out quite green because I paused a bit.

The ammo was Hornaday Lite 125, PMC Bronze 147 and Federal GoldMatch 168. We started light and worked up, just because we've never shoot a bigger rifle before. Mostly I was watching the berm to make sure we were being safe, we didn't have sights on the gun yet. A good number of our shoots hit the target board though. Once I noticed a lot of flame and sparks that even hit the ground. I'm not sure which ammo was doing that, perhaps the Hornady Lite because those casings look dirtier on the inside than the others, I'll watch for this next time.

[RC20]

I don't know where I came across the laminate, but it was, hey, I like it. My second Savage was the BTH111 with the Boyds light weight laminate. My brother does nice stock work, me, nah.
But I have gotten a lot of compliments on the Laminates and the combo of Blued receiver and Stainless barrels (others like the blue/blue and my latest Green colored Laminate.


I like the Thumb hole, it seems to work better for me target shooting as I get a straight trigger pull on it, but they have different forms in it so not locked in.

What I found was the Savage OEM barrel while it seemed to shoot pretty good (long story and getting back to it this coming year) was the worst crud collector of the 3 main ones (Shilen is best and I gather they do a better honing).

That said, I am now using two new cleaners that work far better than Hoppes (and I had a Hopes Kroil mix that was good).

Carbon Killer 2000. There4 are several of similar types out there. Its non toxic, almost no odor and it actually cleans (I now have the Lymans Boroscope so I can check, see results)

The other is a better all around, Bore Tech, its both a copper and carbon cleaner. Also non toxic low odor.

Along with being effective both are much appreciated by my wife as well as the Hopes odor was bothering her.

Even with those, its takes a good 10 shots to get the cargon out. What looks clean is not per the Bororscope.

[J.Baker]

Is it possible for a mod to correct the title of this thread to say "12FV" instead of "10FV"? I tried but can't do it.

Fixed :)

As for everything else, before you start jumping in to change things I would recommend going out and shooting it a good bit to see what YOU like and don't like about YOUR rifle. Everybody has their opinions on what does and doesn't need done to a Savage to make it better, but you can't know what needs fixed or improved on YOUR rifle if you don't know what you have to start with or what you like/don't like about what you have. All you end up doing when you start changing things without first getting a base line is chasing your tail because you have nothing to compare it to to know if the changes made things better or worse.

This is probably the #1 biggest mistake I see so many people make when it comes to firearms. You would serve yourself better by spending that money on higher quality ammunition or getting setup to reload your own ammunition as that will do more for improving accuracy and consistency than most any modifications you might make.

Two things I've learned running this site over the last 14 years is that 1) most Savage's will shoot better than you can right out of the box, and 2) folks throw a lot of good money away buying upgrades they really don't need.

[RC20]

Good advice. I have been shooting for something like 58 years, so while Savage was new to me, what I wanted was pretty well defined.

That said, if there is one Mod needed to me its the stock. the 10T comes with a decent one, this one is about as minimal as it gets (you give up something for that price!)

As Mr. Furious says, shoot it for a while (I did mine ) then decide for sure.

If you do go with a stock, give some thought to if you ever think you might change the barrel to a Bull profile (plenty of time to research that). If so I would order it with that channel even if you don't need it right now.

Laminate is pretty easy to sandpaper it to larger dimensions. So if you change your mind its easily fixed. I have not done a plastic or composite stock.

[upinthehills]

As for everything else, before you start jumping in to change things I would recommend going out and shooting it a good bit to see what YOU like and don't like about YOUR rifle.

MrFurious, that all sounds like good advice and it lines up with how I tend to approach things.

My scope and mounting hardware showed up today and I was very eager to check it out. Things didn't go so well though. The scope seems very nice and the SWFA people were a real pleasure to deal with. The SWFA rings seem very good quality also. The EGW rail seems well made and fits well, but the mounting screws for it may not have been so great and now I have some worries I may have damaged the threads on the action and I'm a little irritated and discouraged.

I thought I was being careful, but I think now I should have looked carefully at the screws before I tried to use them. Like reading glasses and a magnifying glass. I think what happened was that one screw seemed to have a bit of it's second thread missing and then a piece of thread bent up into a burr. Not something you would see without looking very carefully. The screw started fine, I put it in the hole and turned it backwards until I heard the click where the thread starts, then went forwards. Somewhere in the second turn it started getting stiff, so I took it out and looked in the hole thinking the thread may not have been well tapped. Then I tried another hole :frusty:

This story goes on for awhile... Two of the screws work pretty well in all the holes, so I hope it works out. I would like to get some good screws or at least some more now though. The threads on the other screws look fine, but the socket for the allen wrench is slightly off center - which is irritating now that one of the screws may have damaged the action. Or maybe there was a problem with the action and it's threading - who knows now? :frusty:

I'm not sure I like the rail, it's nice but not sure I need all those slots - it seems more of a fashion type thing. I may look for something with a lower profile, like some of the two piece mounts I've seen. I haven't had a chance to look through it outdoors yet though and need to think about wether the height is comfortable for me. I just didn't expect this step to take hours and make me think/worry about trying to redrill/retap the holes bigger.

Tomorrow is a new day...

[jpx2rk]

Boogered up mounting holes is somewhat common on Savage rifles, I had the same issue with one of my FV12's, ended up ordering some tap dies and additional screws from the mfg for the scope mounts I used. Not a big deal but frustrating for sure. Delayed the initial range trip for that gun by over a week due to waiting on the parts and me getting back to the project, etc.

[Wide Glide]

Why a socket type Allen key? That is going to make it way to easy to strip those tiny screws. A little blue thread locker and a regular Allen key is more than enough. When bolting on the rail you also want to make sure you just start all screws then tighten each a little at a time. Otherwise it may not want to line up right at one end and make it real easy to bugger up some threads.

Rails seem much sturdier than 2 piece mounts and make it much easier to get a scope where you want it rather than where the bases will allow without the rings being up against the bell or turret housing. Also easier time swap scopes between rifles, I regularly switch a 36x sightron, 20x swfa, and 12x swfa between multiple rifles.

When it comes to mounting optics you get what you put in. Sure you can have a scope, rings, base all unbound and installed on a new rifle in a half hour and hope it's solid and comfortable or you can take your time and make sure your mount is solid, scope is positioned so eye relief is perfect and as soon as you snuggle into a weld your getting full view rather than black ring. Make sure your reticle is leveled so when you dial in elevation it doesn't also effect windage....

I hate setting up a new scope the first time, but once it's setup it's mated with that set of rings and bubble level/anti cant device for life and just needs rezeroed when swapped onto another rifle's rail. And with good notes doing it this way I can be within 2 inches of bullseye after switching before even firing,

That's all personal preference and opinion though.

[upinthehills]

Why a socket type Allen key?

I didn't say that well, I mean the socket formed on top of the screw the allen key fits into. This is part of my frustration, I thought I was being very careful and methodical. I was checking the front screw first to make sure it wasn't bottoming on the barrel threads. Then when I had trouble and found the burr I also noticed another screw wasn't going all the way down compared to the others so I carefully ground 2 threads off the bad screw and as I tried again to put it in, I noticed the EGW rail has a different shoulder height for the front screw. Sigh...


Rails seem much sturdier than 2 piece mounts... I regularly switch a 36x sightron, 20x swfa, and 12x swfa between multiple rifles.

Good to know, that was another question on my list. My local club does mostly rimfire matches on egg silhouettes, so I can get a CZ 22lr for about the price of another scope. I've seen some nice one piece mounts that just don't have so many teeth, but like you say I don't know yet where I need to actually have the scope sit.

I have some taps and dies will just have to dig them out and see if they go this small....

[RC20]

Not only small, kind of unique to rifles. I have a pretty good setup and had to order this one in. Forge the pitch but not in a normal set.

Be careful, one is close enough to lure you into trying it!