newbie with 12FV, so many questions...

[upinthehills]

If you wear jeans and flannel, no one will judge you as a "tacticool dude". That is the tactical camouflage I prefer

OK! I'm with the program, jeans and flannel I can do.

I'll get the pro varmint in laminate. Only $15 more for walnut but I think the laminate will be good looking. I'm in the northeast so the zombie green is probably the color that fits in, but I'll probably just get the Nutmeg. It's funny, on a classic stock they charge extra for black paint and on this stock they charge extra for laminate.

[hereinaz]

Coyote is my favorite. I do have a nutmeg laminate in a traditional stock on one of my rifles, and it looks good.

[RC20]

At this point probably should open up a post on the reloaders section

Firstly, a lot of reloading is personnel preference. And the other part is superstation. A while back I read an article that the guy had asked like 8 of the top match shooters what was the important aspect of reloading. You could think they all were from different planets. They agreed on almost nothing that was the same as the important aspects. Phew.

Ok, here is my take.

1. Case Trimming: Yes you need one and fairly early. The brass is going to grow. Once fired brass is helped with a prep (de-burr and chamfer as it allows bullets to seat in easier) The ones that really work are what they called the off the shoulder trimmers . They index on the shoulder not the putting the whole case in a device. You would think that does not work, it does.
I have a full length trimmer, no mater where I set the limits, it over trims or under trims. I have to pull each one out and check it.
So, the one to get is the Gerard Tri Trimmer (there is another one I can't remember, same setup ) Both on drill motors. I lock mine in a vice. Gerard makes a bench one that has different adaptors, $450 or so. If you have 5 calibers to do, that's the way to go. Changing adaptors is easy on that. It not only trims to length, it also chamfer and deburs saving those steps and its accurate as opposed to doing that with a hand tool or on a prep statin. $98. Some limit on calibers. .002 or so accuracy.
Little Crow makes a nice one but it does not chamfer or de-burr, $78 or so.

2. Brass: FC is great one time shooting brass, it won't last the reloading process past about 8-10 max no matter what you do. I don't collect it any more, if I had a lot of it I would shoot it till it started to go and dump it. Its very soft, nice for chamber formation, no so much for reloading.

3. Scales: Some charge by volume, I don't like it. I do it by weight. I have used and have two beam scales that some laud as the only things a real reloader should use. Bull (IMNSHO). An electronic scale is the only way to go (and I tend to be a stick in the mud)
It not only does powder down to 1/10th of a grain, you can weight anything with it. Not sure you charged that case, weight it. Want to sort bullets and cases by weight , easy. You can do it on a beam, its a total pain. Frankly I would have two electronic conic vs even a beam as a backup.
The key to them is they drift and you need to watch it. You weight your pan, zero it, then watch the scale when the pan is OFF. Mine weight 150.0. As soon as I see it drift to 150.1 or 150.2, I re-zero the pan. Its as simple as that. You have to re-zero Fairley often at times, other times they stabilize out and you can do 10 or 15. Its much quicker and easier doing it than reading about it.
The one I like now is the Lyman with a trickler built onto the unit. My MO is to under charge, trickle up to what I want. Its not the best triclkler out there, its a bit close and a tad hard to get the pan out but overall it works, has good buttons and display.

Things People Don't Talk About Soon Enough:
1. Sizing: What you need are some tools, you can use them for this as well as COAL (latter). The die mfg will say something like, turn the die down to the shell holder, then another 1/8 turn. That pushes the shoulder back to far, stressed the brass and breaks cases at the base in 8 to 10 rounds.
What you want is the Hornady shoulder adaptors for their measuring (compared set). You also need a decent micrometer. Good ones out there at low cost. Mechanical or digital. You then resize you case, measure what the shoulder is on the case and then with the die above the shell holder, turn it down until you bump the should back .002 of .003. That will fit in one rifle and iffy on others as its sized to that chamber and head space. Mine are all set close to the same so it works for the both 308s.

2. Annealing: Each time you fire the round, the case mouth and shoulder take the heat and are stretched (ergo the trimming). At something around 10 rounds, the brass around the shoulder and neck harden. Bullets become harder to seat (and how tight they are and how consistent that tight is in the neck does have an affect on accuracy)
Worse yet is that if not addressed they will start to split. You can pitch at that point or anneal before it gets to that point.
The problem is that means heat, 700 or so for a short time (few seconds).
Torch: Most use torches. It an be done but its dicey as getting the right temperature and time without going too far is not easy, takes a lot of practice. Don't buy into the it changes to orange and that is just right. Its gone too far.
The biggest caveat is that you don't heat the case up so much that heat goes down the body. That will ruing it. Larger cases like 308, 30-06 are very hard to do that on but not impossible. . . Its smaller cases like 223 and such that it can get dicey.
Ruptured cases will occur if the base gets too soft. there is a lot of heat treatment that goes into a case in mfg to get it right.
That said, usually you under anneal or over anneal and that mans the shoulder and neck are soft, but will not fail. They just are not consistent (over anneal does not re-harden, it stays too soft). Under anneal just means it hardens up quick and may split.
I am lucky, my brother had an inductive annealer I take my cases over and in 30 minutes I can do 500 or more. Its eppensive . His is an Annie, about $550 for the annealer and the right adaptor.

Dies: Phew, opinions all over the map. I pretty much like them all. I am a Full Length die proponent as I shoot my rounds in two guns and neck sizing does not appeal to me.
What I do like is the match dies, a bit better tolerances and the seating dies with the micrometer head for accurate shooting and COAL adjustment is a must. RCBS makes a good one of that type, Forster does as well but theirs is caliber specific where as RCBS can be used for at least common caliber (there is a long shell adaptor to allow use for 308 and 30-06.
Forster makes a nice one, its caliber specific though. Redding, Lyman and Lee all work and I have some of each.

Bullet Seating: Like the case sizing, bullet seating is done best referenced off the OGVIE (shoulder) of the bullet not the tip. Tips have quite a bit of variant. OGVIE has variation but not as much.

Same device you screw on the micrometer blade as the Case shoulder is used for the bullet adaptor . Its just caliber specific (30, 7mm, 243/6.5 etc. COAL does make a difference in what gun likes what length best.

Ok, enough for now. Press? They are all ok, again I have RCBS not because its the best, its what we had and it works fine after 35 years (actually have 3, a Junior I take to the range to adjust COAL as I shoot to fine tune new loads)

Forster has a nice one that may align better or have less run out on a load.

If you have room two is easier.

I do single stage press, lots of discussion about merits of turrets and progressive etc.













I learned a little more about the Boyd's stocks, but I'm reconsidering the order to make changes to my rifle. Sometimes Boyd's specifies a barrel channel of .930 for a bull barrel and sometimes 1 1/16". Then they don't always offer you the choices of laminate and only the black paint. So you really have to grovel thru their site to get what you want, a model 11 bull barrel is different than a model 12 bull barrel.

Now I'm thinking getting started on reloading might be a better first choice for me. Saving money on ammo would pay for the stock, and getting range practice is probably what will improve me the most right now. The price was $28 for a box of Federal Gold Match last time.

What I'd like advice on is the types of parts to get for reloading and also the order to buy them. It occurred to me the order is important because spreading the costs over several months sort of puts my new hobby under a certain threshold in terms of things really standing out on my card statement, LOL. This is just a theory at the moment, we'll know if that works in 2 or 3 months.

My thought is that at least the first time or two I can reload my Federal brass which I have saved, then move up to the Lapua cases. I have measured a couple of fired cases and they are the same length as the new ones so I don't think I need to buy a case trimmer up front.

From what I've seen, I like the Redding mechanical scale because it has the little marks that show how far off the balance is at the end of the arm. It should be accurate to a fraction of .1 grains. Or I could start with a cheap electronic scale for the first months, it would be better for weighing things like bullets or my .22 ammo. Not sure if I would learn anything from that though.

I'm thinking of starting with the LE Wilson hand dies for neck sizing and bullet inserting because that would avoid buying a big press right away. I only have one centerfire gun so neck sizing might be enough for a couple of reloads per case? I did see a comment somewhere that these dies do not allow for compressed loads? Is thqt a problem right away?

I am really surprised at the number of powders available and also that there is not more information available on them. I think what I want is very consistent ammo, so looking for powder with low temperature variation and maybe also low copper fouling. Modern powders may be better about these things, but I can't even tell which ones are the modern powders in many cases.

My shooting will mostly be 100-300 yards ( all at targets ), but I found a 1000 yard range I'd like to try this year too. The shorter ranges are a priority getting started.

[upinthehills]

Ordered the Pro Varmint in nutmeg last night. (Actually a couple days ago, I have so many questions it takes me three days to write this thank-you note to RC :-) )

RC20, thanks for taking the time to write such detailed answers for me. I figured I would get to the reloading section when I get a little more figured out, maybe the answers get complicated right away though.

So far I like what I've read about the hand dies from LE Wilson. Right now though I'm trying to decide between the Wilson "case length head space gauge" and something that is adjustable like the RCBS "precision mic cartridge headspace tool". The RCBS unit costs $15 more and comes with a plastic adjustable cartridge! There is also the Whidden Gunworks case gauge which is mic adjustable. I think I favor the Wilson gauge, because it's the most simple. It will function as a standard to measure my dial caliper too, maybe have a machinist friend check it with a really good micrometer...

I didn't see the Hornady case gauges right away because they are listed in a different section of the reloading area on Brownells/Sinclair. I'm not sure what the advantage of those is yet...

This 12FV is my only centerfire rifle, my first reloading will be 6 boxes of saved brass from Federal Gold Match. If I can get 2-3 reloads out of this then I can get better brass and also full length dies. I'm trying to choose a case gauge that makes sense.

http://www.brownells.com/reloading/measuring-tools/case-gauges-headspace-tools/case-gauges-prod80617.aspx

[Newtosavage]

Fixed :)

As for everything else, before you start jumping in to change things I would recommend going out and shooting it a good bit to see what YOU like and don't like about YOUR rifle. Everybody has their opinions on what does and doesn't need done to a Savage to make it better, but you can't know what needs fixed or improved on YOUR rifle if you don't know what you have to start with or what you like/don't like about what you have. All you end up doing when you start changing things without first getting a base line is chasing your tail because you have nothing to compare it to to know if the changes made things better or worse.

This is probably the #1 biggest mistake I see so many people make when it comes to firearms. You would serve yourself better by spending that money on higher quality ammunition or getting setup to reload your own ammunition as that will do more for improving accuracy and consistency than most any modifications you might make.

Two things I've learned running this site over the last 14 years is that 1) most Savage's will shoot better than you can right out of the box, and 2) folks throw a lot of good money away buying upgrades they really don't need.

Some solid advice right there... I removed the Accustock for a tupperware stock, swapped bottom metal for plastic, and dropped the "tactical" bolt knob for a lightweight knob on a .308 model 11 I used to own. All I lost was about 2 lbs. of carry weight. Still shot sub-MOA to 300 yards, as a sub-7 lb. rifle. ;)

[RC20]

upinthehills:

You are welcome. Its does not hurt to start out with basics, just that once I got past 8 rounds I found that no longer worked with broken case base (the minimum bump back of as close to .002 as you can get. ) and split necks (the need to anneal)

My take was that I just got the Hornady tool, measured the shoulder when fired and then bumped back the minimum.

http://www.hornady.com/store/Lock-N-Load-Headspace-Kit-With-Body-1-Each/

Also works for Bullet Ogive with the adaptors that go on the body for that use as well.

[upinthehills]

I removed the Accustock for a tupperware stock, swapped bottom metal for plastic, and dropped the "tactical" bolt knob for a lightweight knob on a .308 model 11 I used to own. All I lost was about 2 lbs. of carry weight. Still shot sub-MOA to 300 yards, as a sub-7 lb. rifle.

That's great information, I believe it. They say once people spend money on something they tend to believe it works and if they pay more they are more convinced. Maybe I should have waited on the wood stock, but I just like wood. There was a great picture on the LE Wilson website showing the founder shooting bench rest years ago with what looked like a home made gun mounted on a 2x4 or maybe a 4x4 with some chiseling.


Also works for Bullet Ogive with the adaptors that go on the body for that use as well.

Can you use a micrometer bullet seating die to measure this?

RC, your brother's setup with the induction annealer seems like the right thing. Just using a propane torch seems pretty random.

[wfournier]

Interesting thread, I can't help but notice the similarities between your situation and my own having just picked up a 12FV (in 223 though) that I have been thinking of putting in a Boyds stock and I'm getting equipment together to start reloading. It's also my first centerfire rifle and I'm in Massachusetts lol.

[upinthehills]

Wfournier, that's great. Feel free to use this thread for your questions. Have you mounted a scope yet? You can borrow my tap if it's convenient. I am very happy with my SWFA scope. What part of the state are you located in? We can compare notes on places to shoot. I am in MetroWest area.

My stock is on the way somewhere between Illinois and here right now according to the tracking. When I install the stock I am going to double check the length of engagement on the screws. I found the front screw was a little loose when I worked on my scope mounts the other day. I'm not sure it engages as many threads as would be ideal. It's definitely a good idea to clean the threads and use some Loctite on them.

[wfournier]

I did mount my scope, I got some Talley rings with the integrated bases and mounted an SWFA 10X42 I got years ago back when I was in high school (with the idea of eventually putting it on something like this rather than the 22 I had at the time, took a little while lol). Mounting was uneventful for me everything went together smoothly, I did lap the rings a little (I picked up a wheeler kit on a Amazon deal), things were pretty close out of the box but I figured it wouldn't hurt. The SWFA scope I have has been solid but has has developed some internal dust so I'll be sending it in to SWFA soon to have them go over it. Did you end up with the pro varmint stock in the coyote color? I've been looking at them and do like that combo but I am feeling a little unoriginal after reading all this.

I'm in western MA out near umass about 10 minutes from the Granby club with the 1000 yard range, I'm not a member there but probably will be before long but the membership fee is just a bit of a pill to swallow.

I finished breaking in the rifle today and shot a couple groups with the Federal match ammo I had picked up and was pretty happy with the results, about .55 center to center for 5 shots at 100 yards
https://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=0ByvtlK-mWfM_QUVsYXFFcG9mMGs

[hereinaz]

Don't know whether this helps the wait or makes it worse....

Go with coyote, all the cool kids are doing it!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170217/cb617be4f407f5b31ec5a3f3ff3dea79.jpg

[upinthehills]

The stock should arrive later today, I bought the nutmeg. Not very exciting probably. As the pile of Savage parts around here starts to get deeper, will probably have some more exciting and interesting looking stocks. I'd like to try and make one out of a Kevlar tube, but we'll wait on that for a bit - it will be odd looking.

It actually doesn't look all that chunky because the barrel is pretty heavy looking, so the proportions are a bit better than I thought, thanks for the pic HereinAz. It looks like there is no inletting for the trigger guard, does that make it sit lower than the original stock? I'm asking because once or twice I've locked the trigger if i try to pull it from the bottom. With the trigger guard lower it looks easier to do that.

Wfournier, that's a good group. My son managed about .9" pretty early on. We only have 3 boxes of ammo thru it, so more practice is in order. My SWFA is the 12x42, it's a little more picky to look thru then the 10x42 would be, I think. You really have to get your head in exactly the right spot. I think it would be easier finding that spot with the 10x unit. Good luck with it's cleanup.

Nice country out where you live, I went to Umass out there for awhile, life took me other places though. I hope to get out to Granby this year. It's too bad they seem to charge a good amount for guests, I was going to offer to contribute if you invited me out...

[hereinaz]

I like nutmeg a lot too. That and pepperwood are the ones I like besides coyote.

It is inlet for the trigger guard, just not as deep as this trigger guard. I think this trigger guard is thicker at the base than others. I put it together and didn't think much of it....

Boyds sells a trigger guard that isn't as thick so it fits flush. I am going to change it out eventually.

[SageRat Shooter]

Or just buy the metal trigger guard from Savage direct. That's what I did for my coyote laminate, and I didn't have to do anything to it. It's a nice stock, the only "chunky" part is the meat around the barrel channel, but if you're going to open the channel up for a Varmint or Bull contour, then the chunkiness will be much less.

I love mine!!

[wfournier]

Don't know whether this helps the wait or makes it worse....

Go with coyote, all the cool kids are doing it!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170217/cb617be4f407f5b31ec5a3f3ff3dea79.jpg

I'm leaning a little more towards the pepper now actually, I do like the nutmeg too. I really like the coyote on the thumbhole stocks but after see pics of a couple provarmint in the coyote I feel like there are too many straight lines on it to really show off the contrast. That being said I like your's but I saw another where I didn't really like the way it came out with the shaping so I feel it's a little bit of a gamble. What's the verdict on the adjustable comb?

[SageRat Shooter]

WFournier,

The Coyote Laminate really is a striking contrast "in person". The lighting in the pictures actually has more to do with the "lack of contrast" that you're seeing. The contrast is much better than the pepper (I have both). The pepper actually has very little contrast in comparison to the coyote....

I didn't put an adjustable comb on my PV, but I now wish I had because the comb isn't high enough for large objective scopes... I had to add a strap on cheek riser to get me to the correct height.

Just my .02

[tcoz]

A few things about getting into reloading......

First, don't get into it with the idea that you're going to save money. Yes, your per round cost will be less BUT it's going to take quite a while to amortize your initial investment which can be pretty substantial, especially if you're planning on making a lot of ammo. It's a commitment that I don't feel should be taken lightly. You should have the space and time to do it right otherwise you may very well decide it isn't for you and decide to get out of it.

Secondly, buy one or two good reloading manuals before you buy anything else. Forget the load data section for now and read the instructional section.....then reread it until you have a pretty good understanding. Also find out who does the best YouTube instructional videos and blogs and watch/read them.

Third, read the reloading subforums on some of the better forums (like this one) and ask questions. Most people are more than happy to help.

My personal experience was that I spent three months studying every aspect of reloading before I bought my first piece of equipment.

I'll end here since the Reloading Forum is where this should be continued. Feel free to PM or email me if you want to continue the discussion. Good luck.

[hereinaz]

I love the adjustable comb.

I have some extra high rings on my 7 millimeter Remington Magnum because the scope has a big Bell. What is nice was taking a piece of the blue foam camping mat and cutting it so it fit on top of the comb and then taping it down. It made it awesome to shoot. Now I am just going to get a piece of leather so it looks sharper and wrap it in the leather.

[hereinaz]

There is no other laminate with the same contrast look as the coyote. In fact I know some guys that go with nutmeg because it looks the most like real wood. And, I like the Pepperwood and stainless look. I keep the nutmeg for blued barrels.

[upinthehills]

My Boyd's Pro Varmint stock in nutmeg laminate came in yesterday. I am very impressed with the quality and accuracy of the inletting around the action and the barrel channel is well done with enough clearance to float well and at the same time not look like a gaping hole. It is a little lighter than I expected, clearly not walnut, oak or maple. Definitely not flimsy though, it has a very good feel.

The nutmeg is attractive, but it's not really a substitute for walnut. I'm not sure how to describe but it's not as warm or looks a little more sun bleached than walnut or cherry would.

I do have a small problem with it though. The front action screw is about 1/8" longer than the one for the plastic stock. It engaged about 5 or 5 1/2 turns. Problem is that is about 1/2 or 1 turn too many. Maybe I wrenched down on it a little hard, but I wanted to make sure it was well seated on the ferrule that is in the hole. I cycled the action and noticed the bolt didn't seem to close all the way. Surprisingly though it was willing to fire when I pulled the trigger. I didn't know it could do that.

Basically I need either an extremely small washer or maybe just try to grind or file down 1 or less threads of the screw. I suppose shortening the screw is the best choice, I'll just have to be careful because I want as much engagement as possible.