Conservative Data in Load Manuals

[ttexastom]

get mz5 to run it on his computer

[LongRange]

No, but it does looks like your too cheap to buy a drop tube.

P.S. Why is your case mouth all dinged up, did you wet tumble the cases or sprinkle glitter on the case mouth.

LOL its packed in there Ed trust me...49.7g H4831sc in a 6mm creedmoor case a drop tube would do nothing...and yes i tumbled the brass because i cleaned up the necks and the new brass is to short to trim...the inside is chamfered so its all good.


not according to how scope eye loads it ain't

i just got off the phone with Dean...he said i could get another grain in them if i seat the bullet 1/4 of the way then pull it and add more LOL!


get mz5 to run it on his computer

no need its just 4831sc ;)

[bigedp51]

LOL its packed in there Ed trust me...49.7g H4831sc in a 6mm creedmoor case a drop tube would do nothing...and yes i tumbled the brass because i cleaned up the necks and the new brass is to short to trim...the inside is chamfered so its all good.


LongRange

Your photo of the case mouth was out of focus but when I saw all the different points of light I guessed right away it was wet tumbled brass.

At AccurateShooter.com there is a seven page guessing game posting of why the OP was getting marks from his Redding competition seating die. The marks on his photo were from wet tumbling and the case mouth being peened and shaped like a mushroom.

Now I wet tumble with SS media and will never go back to dry vibratory tumblers. I'm also 67 and have chronologically gifted eye sight and could not "see" any peening with the naked eye on my cases.

I didn't see any peening until I broke out my camera and took a closeup macro photo of the case mouth and looked at it on my computer.

The photo below is a small copy of the photo I took but had to get off Google images because I deleted it at my Photobucket account. Meaning its not as large or detailed as the original photo.

Below on the left is a case that was fired then wet tumbled with SS media, meaning it had been trimmed to length and the mouth is now slightly peened and rounded. The case on the right is a brand new untouched case as it came from the factory.

http://i.imgur.com/CIxnlIW.jpg

The only reason I'm showing you this is because a VLD inside neck deburing tool will fix the "inside neck" peening. But a standard outside deburing tool still leaves a raised section on the outside of the case neck.

Meaning a Redding bushing die and the competition seating dies do not like case mouths that are peened and it could effect neck/bullet runout.

Bottom line, I now trim my cases after wet tumbling to help remove any peening at the case mouth.

[LongRange]

Ed this is what my necks look like after I've fire formed...i anneal every second firing...tumble every time and FL size every time..i dont worry about necks other than the inside until after ive fired because i run my necks longer than most and they are never long enough outta the box to trim...my last batch of 6CM had to be fired twice before they where long enough to trim....i trim after tumbling for the same reason.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161218/3a9abaa24a009ae90160096dbfde4ae0.jpg


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[bigedp51]

Ed this is what my necks look like after I've fire formed...i anneal every second firing...tumble every time and FL size every time..i dont worry about necks other than the inside until after ive fired because i run my necks longer than most and they are never long enough outta the box to trim...my last batch of 6CM had to be fired twice before they where long enough to trim....i trim after tumbling for the same reason.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161218/3a9abaa24a009ae90160096dbfde4ae0.jpg

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You should sell those cases to people with warts and moles, we could use them like a cookie cutter and then just pull the warts and moles off leaving a clean round hole.

And then we could brag about all our old bullet wounds from the war.

Did I tell you thats one sharp looking case. Or a great way to make a hole cutter.

Just kidding, I use a braille deburing tool and cant see what I've done to the case mouth anyway. :-)

[toddcdozer]

Does this look like to much powder to you guys?

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161217/ce7e70e2efb417f5e1fa5d6a31aa8eca.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkNot really. Looks like 2 gr more might fit. All the stuff I load I just dump R33 in to even with case mouth and jam the biggest VLD made for caliber on top.

[MZ5]

I have pressure test equipment, and I use it. I know from 'practical experience' that CHE/PRE is very nearly useless. The statistical analysis I shared is based on actual pressure testing, not guessing, and shows the same thing. You're welcome to continue with your fantasy, of course, but at least a few readers here will apprehend the difference.

[Wide Glide]

Why not just switch powders? The nosler manual I'm looking at shows 44.0 rl15 or 46.0 gr varget at 2820. Vs 44.5gr 4064 at 2700.

Also have you tried checking actual drop to verify your chronological is correct? It wouldn't be the first time someones chrono was off by quite a bit with a certain bullet.

[bigedp51]

I have pressure test equipment, and I use it. I know from 'practical experience' that CHE/PRE is very nearly useless. The statistical analysis I shared is based on actual pressure testing, not guessing, and shows the same thing. You're welcome to continue with your fantasy, of course, but at least a few readers here will apprehend the difference.

And at the Hodgdon's site on measuring base expansion is the only method reloaders have that do not have pressure measuring equipment.

This method does not measure pressure, it measures how much pressure the brass can take before it reaches its elastic limits.

I have had Federal factory loaded .223 ammunition with over sized primer pockets on the first firing and expanded excessively in the base.

These cases had soft brass and thin flash hole webs and could not take the pressure other brands of brass could.

And measuring base expansion could tell you to stop adding powder long before reaching book max pressure.

So go to the Hodgdon's website and tell Hodgdon's they are living in a fantasy world and wait for their reply.

And I posted the link below for a reason.

How Hard is Your Brass? 5.56 and .223 Rem Base Hardness Tests
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/05/how-hard-is-your-brass-5-56-and-223-rem-base-hardness-tests/

[ttexastom]

mz5 were you using this pressure measuring equipment when you almost blew a gun up? do you believe in global warming, because someone with credentials says it so? Fred huntington, parker ackley, and other noted people in reloading from the past will come and haunt you. the truth shows when you know more than companies that manufacture data? are you smarter than people with degrees that work at these companies?

[m12lrs]

mz5 were you using this pressure measuring equipment when you almost blew a gun up? do you believe in global warming, because someone with credentials says it so? Fred huntington, parker ackley, and other noted people in reloading from the past will come and haunt you. the truth shows when you know more than companies that manufacture data? are you smarter than people with degrees that work at these companies?

I believe.in the start about mid range for the manual loading data and work up. All barrels are different. Your rifle will tell you what it likes.

Why does everyone try to take it to the.max. back off a little and accuracy will improve and brass life will be much better.

[bigedp51]

And I wonder why when they test many of the loads in the Lyman manual they use a universal receiver and a pressure test barrel with a chamber and bore at minimum SAAMI dimensions.

Think about it, if you step on a cats tail and the cat dies you may want to think about loosing some weight.

[FW Conch]

The answer to the original question for this thread is very simple. The OP used data from the most conservative load manual in existence. So why wouldn't the performance be conservative? Look at the Hodgdon load and compare it to the Sierra data.

For those who have access to pressure trace equipment, it would be nice to see them start at Sierra minimum and take it up through Hodgdon maximum, and then continue until the "end of the barrel blows off". That would be some meaningful information instead of just a taste here and there.

I know what happened when someone tried to push a 308 pill down a 7mm bore. Failure occurred at an estimated 110,000psi. But this example tells us little about maximum loads and their pressures.

Along with the tests suggested, it would also be good to see the cases that fired each load to get a visual for comparison. And record the velocity of each shot. This would be the ultimate in meaningful information in my book.

Personally, I load for accuracy and could care less about blazing speed or maximum fps. But if 69,000psi bothered Me, I wouldn't even shoot a HP rifle.

JMAO...:-)

[ninner]

Seeing the full brass made me laugh, I prefer max loads to be slightly compressed. I look for it in bullet/Power combinations in the manual when trying new loads. It lowers the chance for a catastrophic FUBAR to almost nill. They usually provide decent accuracy also.

[bigedp51]

Why Does Load Data Vary Between Reloading Manuals?
Written by Sierra Bullets Ballistic Technician Duane Siercks
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2016/04/why-does-load-data-vary-between-reloading-manuals/Written by Sierra Bullets Ballistic Technician Duane Siercks

Here are five reasons why the load data varies:

The Bullet
Basically, the similarities in the .30 caliber 168 grain Match bullets (for example) end with weight and diameter. The bullets likely have dimensional differences such as bearing surface length. Bearing surface has a large effect on pressure and velocity. There are also differences in boat tail, flat base, ogive and over-all lengths, which each help determine the cartridge over-all-length (COAL). With different COAL’s, we can expect changes in pressure and velocity also. In some calibers there are differences in bullet diameter with different bullet manufacturers.

It is also worth noting that bullet manufacturers do not all use the same copper alloy for their jackets. This produces more or less friction that results in load pressures and velocities. The solid copper bullets also vary quite a bit in comparison to a lead core and copper jacketed bullet.

The Gun
Each gun is unique, even if you are using the same make, model, and caliber. Special consideration should be used to consider that not all firearm chambers are the same either, creating more variables that need consideration. There can be drastic differences in the throat length. This controls the amount of “jump” that a bullet experiences when the cartridge is fired.

The Powder
Within normal manufacturing tolerances, you can see some variation in a given powders burn rate between different lots of the same powder. So naturally when two different Manuals are produced, it would be doubtful that the same lots would be tested.

The Cartridge Cases
New cases are almost always near minimum specs in dimension. A load fired in a new case would likely have slightly more pressure that when fired in a re-sized case. This would certainly be true if we were loading into fire-formed cases that have had minimal re-sizing done. Fired cases that are full length resized most of the time be slightly larger than the new unfired cases. This gives you differences in case capacity. The same powder charge placed within a new case and a full length resized case will produce different pressure levels and probably different velocities.

Conditions
Temperature can cause pressure increases or decreases. Hot temperatures tend to cause pressures to increase, while cold temperatures will usually do the opposite. Humidity and altitude can impact pressures and velocities likewise.

Conclusion
As you can see, an amazing number of variables effect any load combination. With the differences in the manuals, you’re just seeing firsthand examples of what took place when the data was collected with that particular set of components and firearm. Think of a reloading manual as a report. In essence, a reloading manual says, “We tried this particular component combination, and these are the results we obtained.”

Remember that you may or may not reach the same maximum load safely. There is no “one load fits all bullets.” The minimum load data offers a safe place to start. The maximum load data listed should always be regarded as a safety guideline and not necessarily a goal! Your gun should shoot accurately without breaching the maximum load data. The best advice is: always start low and work your load up!

If you have questions about variances in load data or other reloading questions, please call our ballistic technicians at 1-800-223-8799 or send us an email at sierra [at] sierrabullets.com.

[LongRange]

Seeing the full brass made me laugh, I prefer max loads to be slightly compressed. I look for it in bullet/Power combinations in the manual when trying new loads. It lowers the chance for a catastrophic FUBAR to almost nill. They usually provide decent accuracy also.

Curious what made you laugh?

I shot those loads last weekend....
6mm creedmoor
Virgin brass
CCI200
H4831sc
107g SMK .025 off the lands
48.2g 3213fps
49.2g 3248fps

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161223/f3fbd67f712f3824b67d24815516ba44.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161223/b3592e827c12cfb9f93418fd3b858689.jpg

I deleted the target because every group was over 1/2".

There it is....

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161223/1005a6078c8955281cb7718d06e54b82.jpg


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[ninner]

Good looking groups. I know a few people who wont load compressed and the thought of their reaction to the photo made me laugh a little.

[m12lrs]

The crunch of compressed loads

A long drop tube and/or.vibration can allow a little more

[LongRange]

Good looking groups. I know a few people who wont load compressed and the thought of their reaction to the photo made me laugh a little.

Gotcha...I'm not scared lol.

And those groups are sad to say the least...problem is they were shooting way to fast...3050 and 3150fps are the sweet spots for a 6mm


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[LongRange]

The crunch of compressed loads

A long drop tube and/or.vibration can allow a little more

Those were compressed enough that I was worried about splitting a seating stem.



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