"Just off the lands"?

[Mountain Man]

We find out today!

21 Fahrenheit isn't ideal for rl17 but I have a bunch of stuff loaded at different lengths plus 50 mild 100gr loads to break in the barrel. This will be the first savage I've built for myself so I'm also interested to see how well the combo of components work together as they were chosen based on my little experience shooting longer than 300yd. Should be fun.

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[Mountain Man]

Rifle appears to shoot best with .005" jam. Still breaking in and cleaning, May tighten up head spacing a bit.

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[LongRange]

What seating depths have you tried?
As far as breaking in I wouldn't waste a lotta time with that 15 rounds is more than enough.


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[Mountain Man]

What seating depths have you tried?
As far as breaking in I wouldn't waste a lotta time with that 15 rounds is more than enough.


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http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161226/d62a8d2999e42f176411926cd968350b.jpg

2.745, 2.800, 2.820, 2.850". The picture shows 2.800 to 2.850", left to right. The 2.745" wasn't worth a digital picture.

My oal to kiss the lands was 2.845", though I realized today while cleaning that I needed a lot more torque on the barrel nut. It's entirely possible my head spacing was changing the whole time I was shooting. I got it back together today the right way with a slightly tighter head space. Waiting for the flat white paint to dry then I'll put it back together and give it another shot tomorrow.

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[LongRange]

this is my suggestion to you and a little info about reloading for a 260....take it for what its worth.

first like most cartridges the 260 has 2 very accurate speed nodes...actually 3 but the third one is hard on brass...first is 2700fps +or- a little...second is right around 2825 +or- a little...your shooting accurate 4350 at 38.5g with a 140g ELD and id be willing to be your only about 2550 maybe 2600fps...if you have a chrony use it and post up your speeds.

now with that said do you see the trend on your targets? if not ill point them out for you...the problem with how your going about your load development is that your playing with seating depth BEFORE youve found a good charge weight which is already giving you false readings. your thinking that your on the right track with seating closer to the lands by looking at the targets...BUT...in reality the closer you get to the lands the faster the bullet is shooting because your creating more pressure and in turn more speed so its NOT the seating making the load shoot better its the increase in speed making the load shoot better...make sense?...and the problem now is that you say your touching the lands at 2.845 and your best group is seated at 2.850 which is .005 into the lands so where do you go from there?
thats right...back to the loading bench no closer to a good load than when you started and wondering why....and unless your barrel came loose yesterday its not your head space.

now accurate 4350 is #118 on the burn rate chart so its just a little slower than H4350 which is listed at #116...also hornady is very conservative with their charge weights listed in their book and the biggest reason is their bullets have a long bearing surface.

your loads...the hornady book lists 41.7g as max with A4350 at 2700fps so this is what id suggest...start at 42g and work backwards down to 40.2g in .3g increments...id load 4 rounds of each ALL at .020-.025 off the lands..2.820(so youll end up with 28 rounds),start with the 40.2g load and shoot 1 ROUND over the chrony and continue up in charge weight but only shoot ONE ROUND FROM EACH CHARGE WEIGHT OVER THE CHRONY watching for pressure and watching what your chrony is telling you as well as how these loads are grouping

your target...set up the target with 8 dots...or 8 of the targets you have pictured...all level like in the pic and number them 1-8...start with target #1 and shoot one round from each charge weight at target #1 over the chrony...target #1 is going to tell you 3 things...speed,pressure and how this load is going to work.

now let the barrel cool a little and either shoot round robin style(if your pretty new to shooting...if youve been shoot awhile and can shoot small groups consistently then shoot 3 shot groups)...if shooting round robin start with target #2 and shoot 1 round of 40.2g then move to target #3 and shoot 1 round from the 40.5g load...continue until you have shot 1 round from each charge weight at each target...so you should have 1 hole in each target and 1 empty case from each charge...let the barrel cool a little and start over in the same order...40.2g at target #2...40.5g at target #3 and so on until you have shot all the rounds you have loaded.

if you choose to shoot groups then basically the same thing applies...shoot the 3 40.2g loads at target #2 then the 3 40.5g loads at target #3...shoot either 6 rounds(2 groups)or 9 rounds(3groups)at a time and then let the barrel cool a little...id suggest 6 rounds at a time as the barrel will cool faster between groups.

if you try what ive posted here report back with your results...i bet youll be happy.

[gbflyer]

Let me share with you a BR secret:

Find the powder that a safe charge touches the base of the bullet when seated slightly off or just touching lands (don't kill yourself getting this measurement perfect) without being extremely compressed. Use the chrono and make sure you're not over book speeds. Your throat length will play the part in bullet selection. All things being equal, up to 300 yards, the best accuracy will come from a flat base bullet because they are easier to build concentric. Past that a BT design will show its stuff. If you have a good barrel with a straight action and do a good job of assembling your rounds with quality components, it's about as good as you're going to get with just about any cartridge we generally mess with. I'm not saying you can't fine tune a bit from there, but again, further gains will be minimal.

I'll don the flame suit, because I know most of us like the nit-pickyness of reloading as it suits our personalities. I'd love to write you a book right here on the subject, but it just ain't that hard. [emoji6]

[LongRange]

Let me share with you a BR secret:

Find the powder that a safe charge touches the base of the bullet when seated slightly off or just touching lands (don't kill yourself getting this measurement perfect) without being extremely compressed. Use the chrono and make sure you're not over book speeds. Your throat length will play the part in bullet selection. All things being equal, up to 300 yards, the best accuracy will come from a flat base bullet because they are easier to build concentric. Past that a BT design will show its stuff. If you have a good barrel with a straight action and do a good job of assembling your rounds with quality components, it's about as good as you're going to get with just about any cartridge we generally mess with. I'm not saying you can't fine tune a bit from there, but again, further gains will be minimal.

I'll don the flame suit, because I know most of us like the nit-pickyness of reloading as it suits our personalities. I'd love to write you a book right here on the subject, but it just ain't that hard. [emoji6]

I agree with just about everything you say expect touching the lands and not exceeding book velocities...as I've said you don't need to have bullets touching or in the lands for them to shoot but most BR and F-class shooters load that way....second I don't know ANY BR or F-class guys that are not over book velocities...I'm not saying that the OP or anyone else should go over I'm just pointing out that BR and F-class guys are.

[Mountain Man]

this is my suggestion to you and a little info about reloading for a 260....take it for what its worth.

first like most cartridges the 260 has 2 very accurate speed nodes...actually 3 but the third one is hard on brass...first is 2700fps +or- a little...second is right around 2825 +or- a little...your shooting accurate 4350 at 38.5g with a 140g ELD and id be willing to be your only about 2550 maybe 2600fps...if you have a chrony use it and post up your speeds.

now with that said do you see the trend on your targets? if not ill point them out for you...the problem with how your going about your load development is that your playing with seating depth BEFORE youve found a good charge weight which is already giving you false readings. your thinking that your on the right track with seating closer to the lands by looking at the targets...BUT...in reality the closer you get to the lands the faster the bullet is shooting because your creating more pressure and in turn more speed so its NOT the seating making the load shoot better its the increase in speed making the load shoot better...make sense?...and the problem now is that you say your touching the lands at 2.845 and your best group is seated at 2.850 which is .005 into the lands so where do you go from there?
thats right...back to the loading bench no closer to a good load than when you started and wondering why....and unless your barrel came loose yesterday its not your head space.

now accurate 4350 is #118 on the burn rate chart so its just a little slower than H4350 which is listed at #116...also hornady is very conservative with their charge weights listed in their book and the biggest reason is their bullets have a long bearing surface.

your loads...the hornady book lists 41.7g as max with A4350 at 2700fps so this is what id suggest...start at 42g and work backwards down to 40.2g in .3g increments...id load 4 rounds of each ALL at .020-.025 off the lands..2.820(so youll end up with 28 rounds),start with the 40.2g load and shoot 1 ROUND over the chrony and continue up in charge weight but only shoot ONE ROUND FROM EACH CHARGE WEIGHT OVER THE CHRONY watching for pressure and watching what your chrony is telling you as well as how these loads are grouping

your target...set up the target with 8 dots...or 8 of the targets you have pictured...all level like in the pic and number them 1-8...start with target #1 and shoot one round from each charge weight at target #1 over the chrony...target #1 is going to tell you 3 things...speed,pressure and how this load is going to work.

now let the barrel cool a little and either shoot round robin style(if your pretty new to shooting...if youve been shoot awhile and can shoot small groups consistently then shoot 3 shot groups)...if shooting round robin start with target #2 and shoot 1 round of 40.2g then move to target #3 and shoot 1 round from the 40.5g load...continue until you have shot 1 round from each charge weight at each target...so you should have 1 hole in each target and 1 empty case from each charge...let the barrel cool a little and start over in the same order...40.2g at target #2...40.5g at target #3 and so on until you have shot all the rounds you have loaded.

if you choose to shoot groups then basically the same thing applies...shoot the 3 40.2g loads at target #2 then the 3 40.5g loads at target #3...shoot either 6 rounds(2 groups)or 9 rounds(3groups)at a time and then let the barrel cool a little...id suggest 6 rounds at a time as the barrel will cool faster between groups.

if you try what ive posted here report back with your results...i bet youll be happy.
Thanks for the detailed input! I deserve a good head smack every once in a while when I miss something obvious like jammed bullets causing higher pressures. What kind of barrel life are you getting with warmer loads, LongRange?


I got a bunch of nosler brass and nos 140gr HPBT Custom Comps for xmas. With my new, final, headspacing, the HPBT oal to kiss the lands is 2.765-2.770" using the nosler bullets. I know I should stick to one bullet, which will likely be the ELD since I'd like to play primarily between 600yd and the moon.

I loaded everything last night to 2.750" using H4831sc. Went from 43-45.3gr in half grain increments, five rounds each, with a ten pack of the starting load to get on paper since everything came apart for paint yesterday. I also finished bedding the recoil lug, which may have had some movement during my initial outing. Here's a pic of the snow dog, will report back findings on new loads this evening.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161226/c528627659d97f4f5181d73364b1c81a.jpg

Also my giant bolt handle, nicknamed "bolt-secks".

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161226/539b6128aaf9a23f89d6f7cdaf3a19a7.jpg

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[LongRange]

barrel life is more effected by how hot you run the BARREL more than how hot you run your LOADS...for an average shooter that runs 5-10 rounds and then lets the barrel cool some where around 2500-3000 rounds...for someone shooting competitions running 20-30+ rounds at a time getting the barrel hot enough that you can not hold it maybe 1800-2500 or so..heat kills barrels faster than round count.

so at 2.750(if your measurements are correct)your about .015 to .020 off the lands which is better than where you were and i think 45.3g of 4831 is going to put you right around 2800fps depending on how compressed that load is in your rifle.

i have never shot any of the new hornady bullets but i have shot a lot of the 140g CCs and a lot of the old hornadys and i dont like either one...i only shoot 2 brands of bullets sierra match kings and berger hybrids...if i was you id get some 142g SMKs and load them at .025 off the lands with the H4831sc and as long as you and your rifle are capable ill bet you find a 1/4" 100yd load some where in the charge weights your going to shoot today...H4831sc and a 142g SMK is one of my favorite combos in a 260...very accurate and very consistent.

[gbflyer]

I agree with just about everything you say expect touching the lands and not exceeding book velocities...as I've said you don't need to have bullets touching or in the lands for them to shoot but most BR and F-class shooters load that way....second I don't know ANY BR or F-class guys that are not over book velocities...I'm not saying that the OP or anyone else should go over I'm just pointing out that BR and F-class guys are.

You bet, I like a little slack that's why I suggest touching or just off. Jamming is no good anywhere in my opinion, as you stated earlier it's a mess when the bullet stays behind when ejecting a loaded round. But you're right, even .030 off probably won't make much difference. I have seen it go South with the big .050 - .065 jumps but that's just my experience. A guy can fool around and tune that a bit. Wastes more ammo, burns the barrel up quicker, and makes us buy more measuring gadgets![emoji1]

Yes most BR shooters are loading over book. But like you I wouldn't be an advocate for that here on the .Net.

Good shooting.

gb

[Mountain Man]

Well today was puzzling again. I tried getting back to my normal shooting spot but ended up turning around due to snow. Did the 100yd shooting in the driveway but due to the giant piles of snow every where I had to double bag it off the hood of the truck which was pretty evident early on that it would cause some wider groups.

Somewhere in the middle of the session, my poi shifted down 6-8" so the groups you see are mostly off the targets.

44gr shot the best, no chronograph data due to cloudy conditions that the chrony just doesn't like. Going to fiddle around the 44 Mark a few tenths either way and maybe get to shoot tomorrow.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161227/e4b554b88f896a21558e192fa5c7bbd2.jpg

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[LongRange]

Way to many variables to draw any conclusions from that test.

Load from 45.5g down to 43.4g in .3 grain increments and shoot the test again either in groups or round robin.

44g is the smallest group but 44.5-45 and 45.3g are all consistent and the water lines look good.


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[m12lrs]

Jump or jam? Both work. Both have their place. Different strokes for different folks.

I do both. Target mostly jam. Hunting hunt for that magic jump less than mag length.

I don't think the jump supporters would say Walt Berger didn't know what he was doing when he invented his VLD

and I don't think the jam supporters would expect a hunter to shoot a jam in his favorite elk rifle

I shoot them from a 0.015 jam to a 0.120 jump. Whatever the barrel likes.

[The Old Coach]

O.P. mentioned that he sees one land marking the trial bullets more heavily than the others. This suggests to me that his chamber isn't concentric to the bore. Chances are near nil that that barrel will ever be a good shooter if that's so.

[LongRange]

note post #3...he was checking the measurements with 7-08 brass sized down to 260 so it was more than likely the brass not the chamber.

[The Old Coach]

OK, good point. Until fireformed, the brass could be way off.

[Mountain Man]

Shooting a lot better! Pics to come!

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[Mountain Man]

Ok, so I got to shoot at a real range yesterday with a bench and had a lot better luck.

The 140gr targets, pictured below, were loaded with the 140 custom competition and 4831SC. 5 shots each.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170101/9740bb19cab703379b17ef0fd8776d55.jpg

The tightest group gets it's own picture, but has 7 total shots because that's how many pieces of brass I had left when I got to that rung on the ladder. Very mild pressure signs at this load level so the next round of reloading will be from 44.5gr to 45.5 or so grains. I like that this gentle load seems to shoot well and will be a little easier on the barrel. You'll see by the notes on the target that the shot string was broken up. Range master was calling cease fires every 10 minutes so I had plenty of time for the barrel to cool in the 17*F weather.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170101/5113da772cc1c27b0bdfaceb5288cbcb.jpg

I also had a chance to do some 120gr testing, 120gr ELD match with A4350 seated at 2.755". This gun likes 120s!

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170101/3925fc5d70412cbb2c607d6533d3ece7.jpg

The 45gr load is pushing it. Recoil was noticeably stiffer on all the 120gr vs 140gr loads. All the loads flattened primers but no cratering. No chronograph data due to cloudy conditions again.

This was also my first adventure with the new scope I bought Friday. So far I'm blown away by how clear this guy is. It's a 30mm FFP 6-24x50 with side parallax and a really, really busy but fine reticle.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170101/103a3acbe3317f9a06c558f06f3bde6a.jpg

I'm a lot more confident in this rifle to 1000yds+ now :)

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