Where are all these 1/2MOA Savages coming from?

[Mountain Man]

Poor guess. Unless you're REALLY bad, which I suspect you are not, the 5/8 MOA groups you shoot are not going to be 1/4 MOA groups in the hand of an expert. I assume we're talking 5-shot groups @ 100 yards.
Getting most any decent gun to shoot 1/2 MOA groups take some care with reloading, pretty good shooting skills, and proper rests, etc. But it can be done even with box-stock Savage rifles without too much trouble. Groups measuring 5/8 MOA, like yours, should be achievable with half decent factory ammo and ordinary sand bags.

Going from there to .333 MOA groups is very much more difficult, usually starting with a high-end barrel swap, premium reloading components, and ultra careful shooting/reloading procedures.

To get down to 1/4 MOA groups is another HUGE leap and very very few people shoot 1/4 MOA groups with any reliability. You can recognize them because they're usually called "Champion".

Of course, sometimes all five rounds lurch into the same hole for unknown reasons. That is NOT the same as having a rifle good for 1/4 MOA. Luck is not the same as precision, as we all know.

Try this: Put five bucks down on the bench and invite the guy next to you to pick it up if you can't put the next five rounds into less than (fill in the blanks here) MOA. I'll do that in windlass conditions at 1/2 MOA but only for two of my rifles, both of which often win 600 yard F-TR and 600 yard BR matches. But that's my personal limit. Anyone guaranteeing 1/4 MOA for the next 5 shots should be suspected of being a space alien.
I'll take consistent luck over precision any day ;)

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[RC20]

If I could just get my luck to be consistent !!!

[30-06shooter]

My axis 30-06 is sub moa. usually in the 3/4'' range.

[RC20]

Those are all 3 shot groups. Which is what I think most people on here are saying when they have a sub MOA gun, three shot groups not 5. Problem is for me that I am not a great shot and will typically pull one out of every 4 or 5 shots.

No, all mine are 5 shot groups minimum. If I think I pulled it I will shoot 6 just to prove (to myself) myself and the setup can do it.
Most of the time it falls at or inside the group.

At times I will shoot 9 shots. I did that a while back when I had one fall outside the group. The 9 were 5/8, the other one takes it out to 3/4 (I have to dig that one up). 8 shots were about 1/2, the one round opened it up to the 5/8.

I do hope no one indicates this is exaggeration. I do this for my entertainment and or satisfaction, not to make myself out to be something I am not. My brother does the same thing. We have gone down this trail together though different takes on doing it (he likes Bull barrel on 1903 Chasis with a couple of other guns thrown in)

I share what I do so that others have an idea what can be done by what I think is a mid maybe a bit above average shooter. Some do much better.

If they do I guess I could do like you had to in flying, land and to prove you did, get someone to sign off.

I am told that 10 shots is really the measure of a gun. You have to be consistently good for that to prove what the gun can do vs the package of the gun, the shooter, the loads and the scope.

What tickled me the last outing was I had one group that was plain bad. I need to measure it, cringe worthy, inch or better.

Wind was blowing enough to knock targets over, light was going, something said try one more round (I also did a COAL adjustment, have to look at the notes for what it was)

The 5 shot group went in at 3/8. Ok, cold, worn out, tired, but I can go home feeling pretty good.

It turns out my other gun had shot a 1/4 group, with the light situation I mistook a connection to a black part as more of a 5/8 group.

That is with what I think is pretty good kit. Good stocks (laminated) reloads I have been fine tuning, Bull barrels (though the Varmint shot some 1/2 MOA groups prior to that) good scopes, good bases, front and rear bags. Not F class but maybe a step below it.

What I can say is the good groups were a lot more erratic in the past and working the same loads I have been getting more and more 5/8 and under.

Using a benchmark that the best shooter has a hard time holding 1/4 MOA, it would seem the guns are sub 1/2 and the error is the shooter.


Not sure if that makes them 3/8 or 1/4 (ball park) but it would seem someplace in there. That seems pretty impressive hardware wise for a put together non target action, good quality buttons rifled but not cut rifled barrels. Good glass (actually one is a 12x Cabella that for some reason my eyes do good with)

Could I be blowing smoke, sure, I guess I could put you in touch with my wife and ask her what the integrity factor is.

[chetc]

this topic seems funny... how come on other brand boards you don't read where are all these 1/2" moa _________ rifles coming from.

Chet

[IA_shooter]

this topic seems funny... how come on other brand boards you don't read where are all these 1/2" moa _________ rifles coming from.

Chet

Because they're not Savages. :rolleyes: The floating bolt head and quality of the Savage barrels just make them for the most part inherently accurate. But as a Savage guy I'm sure most of us already know that.

[koconcept]

They come from the gun store.

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[Slickyboyboo]

I picked up a weather warrior in 260 Rem a few months ago, it sits in a bedded Boyd's laminate stock. I've done almost zero load development so far, and I have it shooting 1/2" at 100 yds with 130 gr AR Hybrids. I plan to do more load work after deer season, but it's a killing machine right now!


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[brownb56]

Have a 110 in 300 win mag with a pencil thin barrel. Got it down to right at 1moa with 208gr amax and r22. Always figured I was the reason the groups didn't get any tighter. But maybe I am not doing too bad all things considered.

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[RC20]

With a 300 WM let alone a pencil barrel I think that's doing good (I think now I would develop a flinch!)

Its a hunting gun and that is more than good enough.


Something I want to add in.

I think groups like this are honest with their reports. The sneer type can argue the nuances, but what I think we are talking about is what the gun can do and what we can do with the gun.

So if I say I am shooting Sub 1/2 MOA I don't claim each one is 1/2 MOA or less. And I say that, I say how many out of a range session that is.

So while we read of "you guys are lying " statements, I find that offensive. I think for the most part we can sort out liars from the shooters.
You simply dismiss the ones you think are lying (if they are)

That contributes nothing to the discussion. Anyone can tear something down, it takes work to add something to a discussion.

So, they have yet to tell me, if in a rage session I shoot 5 groups of 5/8 and under out of 20, what does that tell me about the gun and load? (and pick an number, 3/4 or 1 inch or ?)

From a technical aspect, I think that tells me the gun and load combo is probably good to 3/8. Having done some research, a good shooter can hold about 1/4 inch.

So, if they shoots 1s and 2s, then their gun is good to almost zero (which the Secret of the Houston Warehouse would seem to confirm as those tests were done virtually by machine rest and untouched by anything other than a trigger pull on a 2 or 3000 lb bench.)

So, the one group I shot was by my standard poor right at 1 inch. That's in the wind (from behind) , dim light, cold ) 20 degrees) and the floor is gravel, not the best bench or stool. Frankly that is not bad, not my standards but under those conditions?

So, I looked at my results, decided I had moved the COAL back a bit too far, set the next group closer to the lands and plopped in a 3/8 group.

So I look at it and its far from the first 1/2 or under, I think the gun is good to 3/8 (and given its a bit of a custom setup but not F class)

Overall if I am doing my end right I think I am a 5/8 shooter. I also understand that the concentration and consistency of hold, trigger, etc goes back and forth.

In the past I have shot an occasionally a really good group (to me that's 3/8 or less) and maybe not another one for a month or two.

Now thee 1/2 and less are far more common.

That is with two different proven guns (working on a third) and with load development.

So rather than call us liars, tell us how the results look in context add something to how to get better, do some research with your know good guns and tell me how accurate the gun is with a proven good load in a rock solid stand vs the shooter.

In the meantime, I will continue to publish my results so that others starting down the road can get some idea of how the progression goes and what I think are the signs of improvement.

I don't expect ever to compete with the likes of Tubbs, but I think with my guns and load I can do sub 5/8 MOA work and that is not bad area to be in my opinion.

I also (I know, I am lying again) exclude load development . I know to the true truthers its hearsay, but I tend to think load development means you are taking something form an unknown and larger groups to smaller ones.

When it gets warm I am going to tackle the Pencil 30-06 and 270 and see what I can do with those. Seems like a good challenge.

With the known guns can I do sub 5/8 MOA consistently ? that's the challenge. If I ever get there then the bar is raised higher and its 1/2 MOA and under.

[brownb56]

Yea I won't lie I have a bit of a flinch, have to do dry fire practice to keep it under control from time to time. But I'm just naturally flinchy for some reason but trying to brake myself of it.

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[foxx]

I might have found something I can agree with RC on... :)

see post 130.

[toddcdozer]

Yea I won't lie I have a bit of a flinch, have to do dry fire practice to keep it under control from time to time. But I'm just naturally flinchy for some reason but trying to brake myself of it.

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Best way to BREAK yourself of a flinch is with a BRAKE.

[RC20]

I might have found something I can agree with RC on... :) see post 130.

And the Earth Shook!

I think we often can find more common ground in person that on the internet.

[m12lrs]

Best way to BREAK yourself of a flinch is with a BRAKE.

OR practice with a light recoiling rifle

[brownb56]

Best way to BREAK yourself of a flinch is with a BRAKE.
I put a muzzle brake on it and it helps. I love to shoot but pisses me off I can't get away from flinching. I can tell when I start so usually have to practice dry firing a few times then I am good for a bit.

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[RC20]

I don't know if it helps but I cross that line and mine is 15 lbs and usually not max loads.

Spent a lot of time getting my eyes not to blink as well.

Do you have a good recoil pad? Helps a lot. Never shot it but my brother said it tames his 7mm Rem mag.

[RC20]

OR practice with a light recoiling rifle

That can help, but the best is to get a dumby round in, that really shows you where its at?

Good way is a primer and no powder load. Pop the primer and then you can mix that dead one in with 3 or 4 live ones.

Maybe a better test now I think about it.

[mbohuntr]

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l96/mbohuntr/New%20toy.png (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mbohuntr/media/New%20toy.png.html)

Holy Crap fellas.... I got out with the new FLCP to start the barrel break-in process... and you gotta see this... FIRST 5 rounds out of the barrel! first was a bore sight, adjusted scope, then I fired 4 more cleaning between each one. I thought I was seeing things! ONE RAGGED HOLE!!! and I had a witness!!! Stock FLCP, Vortex PST 6.5-20, Hornady American Whitetail 150 gr. Then I switched to 168 gr. Fusion and got just under MOA.. Now How do I post the pic???

[big honkin jeep]

Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good, LOL Looks like you got lucky and may have found the right load very quickly.
I'd say the American whitetail looks promising. And I believe I'd try a box or two following the same shoot clean procedure for a while :)