Inexpensive stock for Savage model 111, top bolt release, hinged floor plate

[TripletDad]

Good evening,

I'm trying to find an inexpensive stock for a Savage Model 111 that was originally chambered in 270 win that will become a 7mm-08 when the new barrel arrives. The new medium contour varmint barrel for sure won't fit in the factory profile tupperware stock. I bought the rifle off Gunbroker, so I don't know a lot of history about it. It is recent enough to be in Savage's database - if it was online. I've emailed Savage, but no reply yet.

The rifle has a top bolt release, hinged floor plate and center feed magazine. The floor plate release in an embedded lever that moves to the rear to release it. The lever has to be moved to get a screwdriver into the allen head front action screw.

I'm kinda getting the feeling that the detachable stock magazine inletting will work with this rifle, but need a drawing of some type that I could measure against. I've contacted Boyd's for a drawing, but after hours on a Friday so I'm not expecting to see anything from them until next Tuesday. When I talked to them today, the sales lady didn't know and told me to check against the drawing. So far, I've not found that on their website - just the action screw spacing. I'm looking at either the thumb hole varminter or pro varmint.

I'm pretty sure that is an 'old' style trigger guard because it doesn't have a bump in the middle and my rifle has a spacer between the floor plate and trigger guard vs the new style where the spacer is part of the guard.

Here's a crappy IPad picture of the factory stock and bottom metal
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/76629751/savageIMG_0107.JPG

I'm not opposed to converting the rifle into a blind magazine but don't know what parts I'd need for that. It looks like I could remove the magazine from the floor plate and since it's a budget build, I'd prefer not to buy any more than I have to. I see threads where a lot of people are going the other way - from blind mag to hinged or detachable, but none going this way. It appears to me I could remove the magazine by popping it out of the floor plate - 2 tabs on either side and a spring lever on the back - and sliding out the spring and follower, but I have no idea what to attach them to in a blind mag stock.

I'm fairly handy with a chisel and dremel, so if it was close, with just extra wood to remove, I think I could 'fix' it.

As I said before, I'm looking for something inexpensive, decent looking and quick. If the rifle proves to be a shooter, I'll look at a chassis system later - which is another reason I don't want to spend a lot now.

Will the detachable box inletting work with this rifle? If you need any more measurements, I'll be happy to provide them.

Thanks in advance
TD

[jpdown]

The spacing washer under the front TG and rear DBM/HFP frame assembly would indicate your rifle was produced in the early years (2003+) of the Savage Arms transition from stagger feed actions with blind magazine stocks to center feed actions with DBM/HFP stocks. Therefore, your LA bottom metal will work with any Savage LA, CF, DBM factory or aftermarket stock with the current LA, DBM inlet. You may need to do some minor dremel work on a bottom bolt release stock to fit the top bolt release sear arm into the newer stocks that have the inlet cut for a BBR trigger guard. Boyd's Gunstock has several styles and they are relatively inexpensive. Also check Numrich Gun Parts for discontinued factory Savage stocks. If needed, I used epoxy bedding under the rear stock hole to eliminate the need for the spacing washer and to raise the front of the old-style trigger guard (thin front lip) and rear of the DBM frame assembly (surround) so that it would set flush with the bottom of the stock. You may also need to use a dowel rod and sand paper to open up a sporter stock barrel channel and free-float your new 7mm-08 varmint contour barrel. I use several coats of BC Gunstock Finish to reseal the wood. I've never had problems getting a 243, 260, 7mm-08, 308 cartridge to feed properly from a Savage LA, CF magazine.

In summary, any Savage LA, CF, DBM inlet stock with side/top bolt release inlet will all work. The current, LA, CF, DBM with BBR TG inlet stocks will also work with some minor fitting work.

[big honkin jeep]

I have heated up the fore end of a factory sporter stock in my propane Turkey fryer full of boiling water for about 15 minutes and forced a large wooden broom handle (thats what I had on hand that was the right size) down into the barrel channel from the rear of the action inlet out the fore end and then duct taped it into place until it cooled. I did have to dremel the barrel channel just a little bit at the tip of the fore end.

Voila instant varmint barrel channel.
Southern engineering at its finest. :rolleyes: and more'n one way to skin a cat.

[TripletDad]

Thanks very much for your help. The stock came today and everything fits.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/76629751/IMG_0115.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/76629751/IMG_0116.JPG

Now a few more questions. I'm going to attempt to pillar bed this rifle and stock. Are these a good starting point? https://www.midwayusa.com/product/337981/score-high-pillar-bedding-kit-remington-700 or these https://www.midwayusa.com/product/763473/ptg-adjustable-pillar-bedding-column-steel-pack-of-2

(https://www.midwayusa.com/product/337981/score-high-pillar-bedding-kit-remington-700)If I'm understanding Larry Potterfield's video correctly, you need to drill 5/8" holes where the current .305" (19/64" ish) holes are now. Is there enough meat in the stock for those large holes? Assuming the pillars are 1/2", is there enough space between the hole and the front of the sear? It appears there's only about .120" there and wouldn't I need at least .250? It appears the back of the rear pillar in the factory stock has been milled away. Is this what I need to do to either the score high or ptg pillars to get the clearance for the sear?

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/76629751/IMG_0117.JPG

Does somebody make a smaller set of pillars? I like the adjustable ones because I don't have a mill. But I do own files. I like the score hi ones since that kit comes with the stock screws to keep them in place while the expoxy is setting.

Should I make some clearance under the tang and if so, how much? My reading says the tang should not touch the stock for best accuracy. Take it out of the wood or bed the action up a little higher on the pillars to create the clearance? I'll bed the rest of the action once I get the pillars in, so lifting the receiver up a little shouldn't be difficult.

Suggestions are appreciated.

[jpdown]

Be careful opening up the stock holes, especially with the laminated wood stock. From experience, a drill bit will grab and break out large chunks of laminated wood. I use a Dremel tool with small wood router or sanding drum to open up the holes. Cheap lamp rod cut to fit works well for pillars. Since the Savage factory plastic stocks have no resale value, I usually salvage the factory pillars and use those in the replacement stock. Heat the metal pillars with a torch until the plastic melts and the pillars drop out of the stock. Also salvage the 1" factory recoil pad for resale. The action tang needs to be floated on a Savage action. I use a business card thickness. If you raise the action without removing some wood, make sure the bolt will still pick up a cartridge from the magazine lips before doing the final bedding. I usually bed the pillars first and then come back and fully bed the action and recoil lug. I put two warps of painters tape around the stock screws to center them in the pillars. Attach pillars to the action. Put barreled action in stock and use tape around barrel at forearm tip to center/float in barrel channel. Put tape/business card under tang to float. Once everything is centered, floated and level, you are ready to add bedding epoxy to the pillar holes and stress-free bed the barreled action. Make sure to use Kiwi neutral shoe polish as release agent on metal parts that you want to be able to remove from the stock. I use vinegar or acetone to remove excess epoxy before it hardens. Devcon Plastic Steel epoxy from the local hardware store works well as a bedding material.

[FW Conch]

"T D", My advise would be, don't be in a big hurry to pillar bed Your stock at this point in time. Laminate stocks don't need it so bad and sometimes show no improvement at all. Doesn't sound like You are tooled up with a shop, and Myself, I wouldn't even consider pillaring a stock as nice as Yours without the use of a drill press. I don't care for the pillar kits You listed, because the holes have to be drilled too big, or be boarded and counter bored. I also prefer lamp rod.

At this point, I feel You would be better served getting a Fat Wrench torque screwdriver, and torque tune Your action screws in Your stock and shoot it as is for a bit. This would give You more time to study up, tool up, and decide if the job is needed at all.

Good Luck...:-)

[TripletDad]

I do have a drill press, it's a mill I don't have. I also have a fat wrench - I've been doing all my own scope mounting for years.

I might not have to pillar bed the stock, I just want to. This is my winter project, I want to learn how to bed and this is my chance. Assuming I do a half way decent job of it, it may or may not help accuracy, but it wouldn't harm it any either would it?

I want to leave the pillars just a smidge high so I can also bed the entire receiver and recoil lug area. In the neighborhood of .020 or so, as you said, business card thickness. I was thinking of making spacers out of a plastic notebook binder to place between the action and stock when doing the pillar bedding. I'm still waiting on the barrel to come in, I don't think I can do any of this until it arrives and I get it assembled because you have to know how everything lines up first. I guess I could go ahead and make sure the bolt will pick up the next round out of the magazine with the test spacers in place to confirm that height.

So what you're saying with the lamp rod is to cut the lengths I need, fit them between the bottom metal and the receiver and then bed them? I like the idea because I wouldn't have to enlarge the action holes so much. I could get the pillars out of the factory stock, but the rear one is flush on the bottom and about a 32nd below the top of the plastic. I don't think it was doing anything at all in the original stock.

The factory pillars are also flat on top. Do I need to round the lamp rod to fit the receiver? I would guess the best way to do that is rough the round with a dremel, then put some sand paper (smooth side on receiver) and then just rub the lamp rod back and forth until it fits. Then trim the bottom flat to needed length and file/stone to fit.

As far as the diameter of the action holes, do I need a 1/16th (+1/8 on diameter) on each side to give the epoxy a place to set up?

How do you attach the lamp rod to the receiver when bedding? I don't want to lock anything up. I do have some 1/4" x 28 tpi bolts I could cut the head off of, but then I'd have to thread the head end to allow any type of bolt & spacer to keep the lamp rod in place. Is that the way to do it? I do have the dies to do that.

What do I do about the spacer between the front of the trigger guard and the floor plate? Go ahead and epoxy it to one of the two pieces? If so, which one? It worries me just having it floating around in there when I'm trying to bed because I can see epoxy getting into the joints and locking up that part of the metal.

[foxx]

Keep the pillars flat on top and bottom ends. The action needs to sit on the top of the pillar and the epoxy will flow around to fill the space you are trying to fill by cuting a curved top surface. Keep in mind, the pillars are not intended to add strength or permanent support to the action. When the job is done, their only role is simply to prevent the action screws from crushing/compressing the wood of the stock, and allow free floating of the screws. Prior to that, they act as a TEMPORARy support of the action while the epoxy sets.

If you try to "over engineer" the pillars by cutting a curve in the top, it will not work well because you will not have a perfect match of contour (to the action) and therefore you will get side to side stress with binding somewhere. That is EXACTLY what you are trying to avoid. So, to repeat for clarity, do NOT round off the pillars. Keep them FLAT on top. let the epoxy flow around it when bedding... you will end up with a perfectly matched surface for the action.

[TripletDad]

Ok, if they're supposed to be flat, why do the score high and ptg have curved tops? I can see your point though, once I get the rest bedded, it won't make a difference.

How do I attach the lamp rods to the receiver so epoxy won't leak in and should I glue the spacer to either the floor plate or trigger guard to keep it from leaking too?

[foxx]

I don't know why some companies sell pillars with curved tops, but they don't even claim the curve matches the contour of the Savage action, and not all actions are manufactured with the same contour. It's just a poor design that they, apparently, think is better. You'll notice Savage factory pillars are all flat on top.

Inside of the pillars and the action screws both need to be greased with anti-seize because you are likely to get epoxy into the pillars when bedding. My final step in bedding is drilling the inside of the pilars out a bit so as to remove any epxoy that has set inside them. Also, the screws should be free floated when done, so I open up the inside of the pillars even more after the final bedding is done just to be sure.

There are a few different ways to set the pillars. I normally epoxy them into place with just a little bit of epoxy and, once it they are fully set, test fit everything to be sure all lines up properly before fully bedding the action. I use the actual action screws for this initial setting of the pillars.

Once the pillars are set where I want them and all fits/lines up properly, I switch out the action screws with long screws of the same threading that have been tapered on the ends and use them as guide rods... screw them into the action (before placing it into the stock), grease the rods and inside of pillars again, apply epoxy to the stock and ease the action with the guide rods into the epoxy-smeared stock and wrap electrical tape around action and stock to hold in place while the epoxy/bedding material sets.

[TripletDad]

Are you bedding the action at the same time you're doing the pillars? I thought you did the pillars first and then after that was set up, then go back and do the action.

BTW, are you bedding the trigger guard and other lower metal or is it OK to leave that as is?

[foxx]

^^^If you are asking me, I install pillars first (tack them in place with a little bit of epoxy so I can easily remove them and re-do if they don't set exactly right).

Some people install pillars and bed the action all at the same time. I have better luck doing it in two separate steps, especially when bedding a stock with detachable mag and bottom bolt release.

Bottom metal should not need bedding. I do bed them occasionally if I have to do some inletting to make them fit right. Even then, I would do those before anything else.

[jpdown]

+1. Too many things can go wrong trying to do the bedding job in one step. And as mentioned above, check to make sure the bolt head is going to pick up the cartridge and feed correctly before doing the final bedding step. From the pictures, it appears the fit is good. So like Foxx, I see no need for bedding the metal bottom parts.

[TripletDad]

Maybe I just ought to put all my plan down so you can tell me everywhere I’m screwing up.


Install barrel and headspace (when it arrives)
Create at least .050” clearance in barrel channel. The more the better, I like a big gap.
Cut spacer pads from plastic binder to place between receiver and stock to hold it off the stock about a business card thickness. Check to make sure bolt will still pick up the next round.
Enlarge action screw holes in stock to 1/8” over the diameter of pillars
Ring tape front of barrel so it lays in the middle of the barrel channel – left, right, up and down
Cut and fit pillars so they fit between the bottom metal and the receiver on top of the plastic spacer pads using real action screws.
Play-Doh all holes and put at least two coats of release agent on everything except outside of pillars and stock. Tape where needed.
Take extended ¼” x 28tpi bolts, remove heads, round the sawn end
Fill pillars with Play-Doh, center bolts in pillars, screw onto receiver. make sure they are touching the receiver.
Mix epoxy (JB Weld)
Put epoxy in the stock action screw holes using a tooth pick and on the outside of the pillars
Put the plastic spacers on the stock and ease the receiver (with pillars and long bolts) into the stock.
Make sure everything is still centered and tape down (no bottom metal)
Make sure pillars are still touching the bottom of the receiver
Do some clean up on the bottom with paper towels and Q-tips soaked with WD-40
Don’t touch for at least 8 hours (overnight)
Unscrew long bolts using vise grips
Take receiver back out of the stock, get rid of spacers
Do a little cleanup in the stock if needed


So there’s the pillar bedding. I’ll let it set up for a total of 48 hours before I start the next phase.


Tape up outside of stock
Cut some channels / drill holes / rough up inside the stock to give the epoxy something to grab on to
Cut channels on the top of stock where the recoil lug goes so epoxy is not thin on top and front
Create dams in stock in front of recoil lug area and behind rear action screw.
Fill up magazine well with Styrofoam and Play-Doh
Put at least two layers of tape on the front, sides and bottom of recoil lug – none on the back side that goes against the stock
Tape up barrel nut and a little way up the barrel (past the dam)
Put the long screws back into the action
Fill all holes with Play-Doh and put at least two coats of release agent everywhere on the receiver including barrel lug, long screws and inside of pillars
Test fit to make sure I didn’t create any issues with the pillars, barrel and receiver. Make sure there’s no mechanical locks that can happen anywhere
Mix epoxy, fill barrel lug area, front and rear pillar area. Put a little on the sides in those areas too. Put some all down the sides of the stock in the magazine well area
Ease the receiver back into the stock, tape with electrical tape, make sure everything is still centered. I should have a little epoxy coming out all along the top from the rear pillar area to the recoil lug area
Do as much clean up on the outside as possible
Leave it alone overnight
Remove long screws and then the receiver from the stock.
Clean up inside of stock
Done


Is that reasonable? Forget anything?

[foxx]

^^^Pretty good, as far as I can tell. One "issue" I have is I don't understand what the "spacer" is for. I want the action to sit in the bedded stock at the same height when done as it came from factory. To achieve that, I make the pillars just tall enough to be flush with original stock material. Once I have determined they are correct (positioned properly and tacked into place) I go ahead and relieve the inside of the stock with a dremel about 1/8 inch or more so the bedding material is thick and strong when complete.

Finally, I ream the inside of the pillars when all done so as to be certain the screws are free floated under recoil.

Of course, there are more than one way to skin a cat...
If done properly, when tightening the action screws on a finished rifle, the screws should turn easily and then suddenly (or almost) STOP when tight. If they tighten gradually, it is s sure sign you are getting some binding somewhere. In that case, I remove most of the top/surface area of the bedding material and re-apply epoxy until it is truly stress free. I probabley have to re-do mine half the time.

[TripletDad]

Only reasons for the spacers raising the receiver a bit are 1) didn't want to have to remove material under the tang where it could be visible and 2) wouldn't have to remove as much stock material potentially making the stock slightly stronger. Not that big of deal to me either way, just another minute or two of dremel/chisel work.

I really thought the pillars helped support the action. I thought they were curved to be kinda like an aluminum 'V' chassis mounting block. I thought the pillars took all the downward pressure from the action screws to the bottom metal so the wood wasn't stressed/compressed at all. I guessed wrong, didn't I? I also didn't know the action screws were free floated in the pillars. Glad I asked and you guys straightened me out.

I'm hoping to get the barrel in the next couple of weeks. I'll probably do an OCW load work up and get a base line for accuracy pre-bedding. (I will have to go ahead and open the barrel channel up though for a medium varmint profile.) Then I'll bed it and re-test to see if there was any improvement. I just want to see if I can do it. Just wanted you to know that in case I don't post anything in this thread for a few weeks, I've not abandoned it, I just have to get it done. (Going to test Hornady 162gr HPBTs, CCI primers IMR4895, IMR4350, Varget and IMR4064. I'll post that here in a different topic when I get that far.)

Just to give another example of I'm doing this for fun and learning, I'm insisting on using LC brass instead of buying commercial. I know I'm losing some case capacity because of that, but I want a cheap source of brass. It's winter, I'm not going out much, so it was no problem to get 1k of LC once fired, process it, sort by year then weight to make my 300ish LC-16 cases for 7mm-08 weigh inside a 1.5 grains of each other. (< 1% Yes, I know weight isn't strictly correlated to volume which is the important measure.) The necks are still under the SAAMI max, so I'm not turning those. Other than that, I did do a full prep on the brass. As another learning experience, I'll get some same weight LC-15 brass and see if that changes anything once I select my load.

Y'all have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year if I'm not back on before then. But I'll probably be lurking and reading.