Grandkid deer gun?

[JASmith]

You are recommending this for a youngster who is 8 or 9 years old?

Yes, some would agree that might be a bit small and young for deer hunting. Nonetheless it is done, and I would feel far more comfortable if the replies fit more closely to the question posed in the OP.

I would propose that all recommendations for rifle and cartridge have no more recoil than a standard weight .243 Winchester with 100 gr-class factory ammunition.

The 30-30 carbine kicks a lot harder than the .243 because the carbine is so light and the bullets are so heavy


A fast moving expanding 338 WILL make up for a less than ideal placement. If you don't believe this you probably haven't killed hundreds of deer with one. I don't council using horsepower to make up for lack of skill. I do council to hit them as hard as you can. I don't care about killing something TOO DEAD. When you can get 100+ tags a year a little blown up meat doesn't have a real affect in the great scheme of things.
Of course the majority of animals I shoot are over 500 yds and your situation probably differs.
Yes most of my guns are pretty heavy and shot from a bench that I carry in my receiver hitch and drop to the ground for a shot. Point is it doesn't matter what gun you choose as long as it wont kick someone to death and has enough power to make up for a 8yr old getting excited and making a less than perfect shot.
Everyone's 1st reaction to a kids gun is a small light kicking gun, many of which are marginal deer rifles. Make any kind of mistake with a 22 caliber ANYTHING and get ready to see a kid very sad because they made an animal suffer or even lose it.

[toddcdozer]

You are recommending this for a youngster who is 8 or 9 years old?

Yes, some would agree that might be a bit small and young for deer hunting. Nonetheless it is done, and I would feel far more comfortable if the replies fit more closely to the question posed in the OP.

I would propose that all recommendations for rifle and cartridge have no more recoil than a standard weight .243 Winchester with 100 gr-class factory ammunition.

The 30-30 carbine kicks a lot harder than the .243 because the carbine is so light and the bullets are so heavy+1 30-30s are always touted as a beginner gun. Kinda like Mike Tyson would be a good guy for your 1st fight.
Throw in terrible stocks and inefficient round and ugh.

[toddcdozer]

to each their own, but that sounds lot more like killing than hunting. If you aren't prepared to explain to a kid they are ending a life and it can get ugly, you're not doing justice to the animal or the sport.

It's one thing to get pulled out of the truck, put behind a rifle and told to pull the trigger. It's totally different walking for an hour in the dark, carrying and protecting your rifle and shooting from a natural position at an animal you have watched, stalked and has no idea you are there. In the end, it is their choice to shoot. We provide the opportunities and some wont shoot. It's not for everyone, it is, for lack of a better term, intimate. There is a closeness you feel after following an animal for a day, a week or across seasons.We killed 100s a year. Kinda hard to FOLLOW deer when doing that. We had a severe population problem and would often kill a dozen a day. My son understood that we were doing this to TRY to save the population. Didn't work as they died off anyway.
Everyones definition of HUNTING is different. We don't walk around and spread scent all over our property and freak deer out. We get to a high point and glass and then take the shot or maybe once in a blue moon pull a stalk with a bow. To each his own. Walking around where I hunt is a JOKE and will result in all of the deer in the area leaving your property for the year.
Act like farmer Brown feeding cattle and you can hunt them undisturbed all year. Deer don't mind trucks....people on foot....FREAKOUT.
I realize my situation isn't AVERAGE for most, most people have never killed ONE animal at the AVERAGE range we kill them at. Different areas call for different hunting styles.

[handirifle]

I will repeat myself. Make sure it fits the child. If he is accurate with a 223 (and it's legal, it is here) then use a Barnes 50gr TTSX and go hunting. I know people that use a 22LR (no I won't say who or where) and they put it in the lungs. Deer walks 30ft, stands there for a few minutes and drops dead. My point is a well placed bullet will kill deer, period. If your grand kids can shoot a 243, even better.

In my opinion, there is no way I would let a kid shoot a rifle with a brake. A brake, to me, is only a way for someone to shoot something bigger than they should be shooting, that's just my opinion, and it applies only to civilian use.

The potential for hearing damage with a brake is phenomenal, and the damage is accumulative. They should be wearing hearing protection anyway, but a brake only points the blast back at the shooter, and others beside them. I have seen guys shoot big rifle with brakes, while hunting, only to blow debris in the eyes of people standing off to the side and behind the shooter. Sorry, but that is how I see it.

Use the lightest caliber possible, and a well designed bullet, and you will have a happy shooter. Having said all that, 8 or 9 IS pretty darned young to hunt deer.

[yobuck]

Well the problem is, or has become, more of a language barrier than a discussion about guns for kids.
What Toddcdozer is talking about is a subject most here would reject because they have either no, or at least very little knowledge of it.
Its different, I don't understand the logic of it, so therefore I think its wrong, would be the average persons view.
But all that aside, I would be buying a young shooter/hunter either a 243 or a 7/08 and preferably the 7/08.
They fall off a bike and get hurt, then they get back on the bike. Same with the back yard gym set, and the little league sports.
Much about recoil is mind over matter, and when they get to the point they don't mind, it no longer matters.
Certainly by this point theve shot lots of 22 rimfires, and 223s, before being moved along to a bigger cartridge.
Actually, many shooters and hunters, especially those who shoot from benches, use a muzzle brake mainly because it makes it easier to see hits and stay on the target, and not necessarily for the recoil reduction aspect. Take a look at the photo of Lonewolf shooting prone/bipod, and observe the type muzzle brake. No dirt is being blown into his face, but with a different designed brake it would be. So again, we have people offering opinions with little knowledge of the subject matter.

[JASmith]

As one who fought recoil flinchitis for too long and starting at an early age, I cannot concur with advice for a beginning shooter to use anything with more recoil than the .243 Win or the 6.5 Grendel. Yes, they do have about the same recoil with the Grendel launching heavier bullets at lower velocities.

Either of these cartridges are excellent starters with the Grendel having an edge for the larger specimens of medium game.

I am also a tad concerned that .223 bullets, even TTSX style, are too light for game weighing more than about 100-125 lb.


Well the problem is, or has become, more of a language barrier than a discussion about guns for kids.
What Toddcdozer is talking about is a subject most here would reject because they have either no, or at least very little knowledge of it.
Its different, I don't understand the logic of it, so therefore I think its wrong, would be the average persons view.
But all that aside, I would be buying a young shooter/hunter either a 243 or a 7/08 and preferably the 7/08.
They fall off a bike and get hurt, then they get back on the bike. Same with the back yard gym set, and the little league sports.
Much about recoil is mind over matter, and when they get to the point they don't mind, it no longer matters.
Certainly by this point theve shot lots of 22 rimfires, and 223s, before being moved along to a bigger cartridge.
Actually, many shooters and hunters, especially those who shoot from benches, use a muzzle brake mainly because it makes it easier to see hits and stay on the target, and not necessarily for the recoil reduction aspect. Take a look at the photo of Lonewolf shooting prone/bipod, and observe the type muzzle brake. No dirt is being blown into his face, but with a different designed brake it would be. So again, we have people offering opinions with little knowledge of the subject matter.

[taylorce1]

9 year old with a Stevens 200 .223 with cut down stock to 12". 55 grain TSX through heart lungat 90 yards, deer went 25 yards.
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r155/taylorce1/1353633185.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/taylorce1/media/1353633185.jpg.html)

10 year old with a .223 broke inside shoulder DRT 120 yards same 55 grain TSX.http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r155/taylorce1/2013%20Deer%20Hunt/P1000660.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/taylorce1/media/2013%20Deer%20Hunt/P1000660.jpg.html)

Like I said a properly coached kid with a .224 caliber rifle and a good bullet can kill a lot of deer. My daughter now uses her .300 Savage for everything, and has taken deer out last 300 yards with it. I hang with her now but I don't tell her what, where, and when to shoot anymore she's 13 and capable of making those decisions on her own now.

[toddcdozer]

9 year old with a Stevens 200 .223 with cut down stock to 12". 55 grain TSX through heart lungat 90 yards, deer went 25 yards.
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r155/taylorce1/1353633185.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/taylorce1/media/1353633185.jpg.html)

10 year old with a .223 broke inside shoulder DRT 120 yards same 55 grain TSX.http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r155/taylorce1/2013%20Deer%20Hunt/P1000660.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/taylorce1/media/2013%20Deer%20Hunt/P1000660.jpg.html)

Like I said a properly coached kid with a .224 caliber rifle and a good bullet can kill a lot of deer. My daughter now uses her .300 Savage for everything, and has taken deer out last 300 yards with it. I hang with her now but I don't tell her what, where, and when to shoot anymore she's 13 and capable of making those decisions on her own now.Great pics and great job in coaching a new hunter. We have to get kids into this or it will be gone. A 223 will kill anything on the planet with proper construction and shot placement. Personally I would build something bigger with more power and brake it to achieve the same thing but its pretty obvious a 223 will do it as well. I have built quite a few HOT 223 rigs on the WSSM, 284, 243 and 06 case. All of them killed deer but there isn't a lot of room for error. 223s were illegal in many states until the recent popularity of the AR for a good reason. Glad you had good luck with one, I would hate for anyone much less a kid to lose a critter. Cheers.

[yobuck]

I remember as a young kid being with my father at a local butcher who also slaughtered the animals he butchered.
While we were there he drug a big steer into his building with a rope thru a ring in his nose and then thru a ring in the concrete floor, and tied to the bumper of a truck. He pulled that poor steers head down to the floor, then stuck the barrel of an old rusty 22 into its ear and it was instant death.
I would love to leave my kids and grandkids very wealthy. At my age, and for a very very large amount of cash, I (might) be tempted to try that on an 800# sleeping grizzley. Provided, I was very very sure he wouldn't wake up first.
And by the way, good news always travels at the speed of light, whereas bad news dosen't travel at all, especially on the internet.

[LHitchcox]

Since this is a Savage forum, I am assuming you want a bolt gun. The Axis II in youth stock would be a good bet. The .243 is the best bet for a youth rifle. Don't let old bias get in the way. If the .22-250 is capable, the .243 is very capable. The bad rap on the .243 was about bullets that would not hold together. Today's bullets are much better. I love the 95 grain Ballistic Tip for deer. A friend of mine's daughter has great success with a single shot CVA Hunter loaded with 55 grain Ballistic Tips. Because of the lack of recoil, 12 year old Gabi is a dead shot with that little rifle.

[handirifle]

Just because someone does not like or recommend brakes for kids (me) does not mean I have no knowledge or experience, I have plenty of both, and I STILL think they are a PI$$ poor idea for young shooters. At 63, with tinitus so bad (MOST of it from firing ranges at Ft Knox, with little or no ear protection provided, and laying next to M60 Tanks when they are firing away) it's hard to hear much else, that brakes are NOT our friend. They DO help keep one on target, but unless you are shooting at extended ranges, that bullet is there and done it's job faster than most will ever see anyway. The only reason the brake was put on the M16 anyway, was NOT to see bullet impact, it was to keep it from walking WAY off target on full auto. It still does, but not as bad. As for dirt, lay beside, and slightly behind, as mentioned and you might feel differently.

I've killed a fair number of deer with bow and rifle, and never needed a second shot. Not because I am some magic hunter, but because I take shots I am sure of and I am VERY confident in both my abilities and the rifle. Sizes have ranged from 200lbs dressed to about 90lbs dressed.

I have seen the results of flinch from kids shooting big guns, both recoil and noise. I taught all 3 of my kids to shoot, and they shoot very well. My daughter (36) weighs about 105 soaking wet, and she carries a 9mm Glock, but really liked and enjoyed the 45 ACP version. It was just too heavy to lug around. Kids can learn to grow into bigger calibers, and we need to not be cheap and think we can buy one gun and let them work into it.

Teaching my sons (twins) archery, I must have spent a couple thousand dollars on bows and arrows, over the years. The most expensive bow I bought was about $225, but when they start at 8yrs old, they grow fast and out grow bows and arrows fast. The same is true for guns. TEACH them on a 22 and then work them up. You might be surprised at how much better they will be.

This thread is about opinions, for the OP and his young grand kids. Your opinion has weight, mine has equal weight. Don't make it a personal thing. You like Fords, I like Chevy's, big deal.

[handirifle]

In fact, ALL hunters would be better served with suppressors installed far more than ANY dedicated muzzle brake. Flinch CAN be overcome, although difficult, hearing loss cannot. Foam ear plugs or the old Army type with the 3 little rubber disks don't cut it either. Studies have proven that even a 22 puts out a report loud and sharp enough to do undetected (at the time) damage. Hearing damage is cumulative and permanent.

[bsekf]

Try a TC Contender carbine in 357 Max., even after they outgrow it.......you'll never trade it. My Granddaughter even uses it for night coyote hunting.......they don't run away like the ones hit with the little-bitty 22's.

Bill

[Cuernos1]

Been using 243 for years...killed bear, deer (mulies/whitetails/blacktails), coyotes...great round. 95-115gr kill deer dead..

[swamphonkey]

This is not a hard one guys. And Todd is hunting right for his part of the world. I have another friend Todd in Dooley co Ga. On huge farms they do it the same way.
But most of us kill our deer under 200 yards
And a 243 with a 80 gr ttsx is a deer slaying S.O.B. FACT! I have killed 200 lb. 5 yr old bucks with penetration from the Rooter to the Tooter.
A 223 is a fair deer killer WITH a mono bullet!
The fact is a 308 or a 7mm08 can be loaded down to work but they are for bigger kids ! But the 243 you start with 55 gr crap let them shoot good and hunt with a Sighted in 80 gr ttsx. Done end of problem. Got a 400 yard deer slayer.

[JASmith]

This is not a hard one guys. And Todd is hunting right for his part of the world. I have another friend Todd in Dooley co Ga. On huge farms they do it the same way.
But most of us kill our deer under 200 yards
And a 243 with a 80 gr ttsx is a deer slaying S.O.B. FACT! I have killed 200 lb. 5 yr old bucks with penetration from the Rooter to the Tooter.
A 223 is a fair deer killer WITH a mono bullet!
The fact is a 308 or a 7mm08 can be loaded down to work but they are for bigger kids ! But the 243 you start with 55 gr crap let them shoot good and hunt with a Sighted in 80 gr ttsx. Done end of problem. Got a 400 yard deer slayer.
Excellent points!

Alternatively, a 6.5 Grendel on a factory CZ527 or Howa Mini is smaller and lighter with added advantage of being suitable for much larger grame in addition to the excellent 243 Win. Recoil is similar too.

[pawnshop110]

6mmx45 with a 24 inch barrel, in the ar15 platform.

[goosedowner]

6mmx45 with a 24 inch barrel, in the ar15 platform.

No semi autos for deer hunting in our state yet. Maybe next year?

[J.Baker]

As my dearly departed father used to say, "The only people who hunt with semi-automatics are those seeking to master the art of wasting ammunition."

[keeki]

My daughter started with a 243 Sigler shot, then shot my 250 savage that I changed the stock on to make shorter, now she has shot and still shoots a 7-08 with 120 gr bullets. She can easily shoot moa and drops deer like the hammer of thor