Anyone with Quick Load, help please

[Texas10]

I have run out of H4350 for my 22-250 shooting 77 to 80 grain loads. I have a batch of Nos. 77 CC that shoot well out of my 223, and would like to try a load workup in my 22-250 however, I can't find loading data for anything heavier than 70 gr on the Hogdon website, and my Nosler manual does not mention the powder I want to try, CFE223.

Anyone have QL and would be wiling to PM me a starting point and max point along with some ballpark velocities?

Lapua brass, BR2 primer, chamber is Match, barrel is 28 inch 8 twist, varmint.

Many thanks for any help.

[Steelhead]

Can't help with ql but IMR 4451 is a great substitute for H4350 and easy to get

[The Old Coach]

Looks like 30-31 grains of CFE223 is a starting load, 33 is close to max with a Berger 80 grain VLD bullet. Don't assume anything. My model used default values for seating depth, for one thing. Database implies that it is faster than 4350. The 33 grain load calculates as being only 86% fill, so it will be all too easy to overload. Weigh every charge until you're sure of your measure. MV out of 28 inch barrel reports as about 3250 fps with the max load.

I have never loaded CFE223 in anything, so I can't say whether QL is optimistic or pessimistic about its' characteristics. Usually QL errs on the safe side, but there have been some reports that it gives dangerous data with some powders. Be safe.

(IMHO CFE223 looks a bit fast for the cartridge and bullet weight. H414, Ramshot Hunter, and W760 look better. But if CFE223 is what you've got in stock.....)

If there comes to be another powder famine, QL will be a Godsend. Worth the investment. I shoot mostly obsolete 19th century cartridges myself, so for me it's the only game in town.

[schnyd112]

Varget or 4064? I have no experience with Cfe .223 but looks a little slower than either varget or 4064. All three are considerably faster than 4350. Rl 17 may give you what you are looking for shooting heavies from the 22-250.

[Texas10]

Thanks, guys!
I thought more about the CFE223 and how I've never got much consistency with it, and decided against it. The local Bass Pro had two of the powders recommended, W760 and IMR4451. I ran the numbers on the Hogdon website and the 4451 looked pretty close to H4350, so that's the one I chose. VERY EXPENSIVE, a bit more than 25% more than W760, but I also wanted to stick to an extruded powder. I weigh all my charges so metering is not an issue.

The H4350 is impossible to get right now, at least according to my powder supplier, so this will hold me over until my 6mm BR barrel is ready and I have to start all over again. Whoo-hoo, can't wait!

This rabbit hole I've fallen into really has no bottom, does it?

[JW]

Quote: This rabbit hole I've fallen into really has no bottom, does it?

Nope

[squirrel_slayer]

I hear ya. I ended up selling a .260 rem barrel like a dummy because I couldn't get H4350 on obahma #2 scare. it seems to be the first to go and stays gone because of all the benchrest/prs guys.

not to derail your thread but how are you liking that fast twist 22-250? I'm considering a fast .22 for an economy long range toy. was initially going to try a 6mm brx throated for 105 amax's to fill that role but it looks like with all of the new 75-90gr .224 bullets that it would be even more affordable to shoot a fast 22. max range I'm thinking is 1000-1200yds

[Texas10]

One thing became immediately obvious when I began shooting the 22-250; it's terribly inefficient at converting grains of propellant to bullet velocity when compared to the 223. All I read about before I bought it was how fast it was. And if a 40 grain bullet is all you need, it'll send it at Mach 4 while melting your barrel down to a tomato stake almost as fast.

I pulled the original 26 inch, 12 twist barrel and put on a 28 inch 8 twist with the idea that I could get better ballistics between 800 and 1000 yds than my 223 could deliver. The 223 will send a 69 grain TMK at 3150 fps. The 250 will shoot the 77 grain TMK at the same velocity, but need 10 more grains of powder. It'll shoot the much cheaper 80 A-Max only slightly slower with the same load of powder, and almost as accurately which is fine for non competition target shooting, or varmint shooting.

Friday I'll be trying load work ups using the 77 grain Nosler Custom Competition in both guns. At the anticipated max velocity in the 223, the projected stability index for the bullet will be 1.9 according to the Berger website, and out of the 250 it'll be 1.98, in plain language very stable as compared to the 80 grain A-Maxe's 1.24 stability rating (where 1.5 is the threshold of stable).

Be interesting to see how they both print at 200 and 300 yds.

By comparison, my soon to be completed 6mm BR Norma should be able to throw a 105 grain SMK at 2750 fps on about 30 grains of Varget or RL-17. As you can see, the 6mm BR is much more efficient, but then it has that reputation.

[Zero333]

I have not updated my QL is a long time so I don't have CFE223 listed, I'm sorry but here is data for other powders.

I used 2.450" coal, 28" bbl, 106% case fill (above 106% you start compressing the powder), and up to 60,000 psi (few thousand PSI under SAAMI MAX).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cartridge : .22-250 Rem. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .224, 77, Nosler CC HPBT 22421
Useable Case Capaci: 39.354 grain H2O = 2.555 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.450 inch = 62.23 mm
Barrel Length : 28.0 inch = 609.6 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 60000 psi, or 413 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 106 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Norma MRP 106.0 40.1 2.60 3411 98.7 55867 10188 1.203 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S365 104.0 37.5 2.43 3401 100.0 60000 8743 1.180 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter 101.7 38.1 2.47 3391 99.6 60000 9378 1.178 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17 93.6 35.6 2.31 3388 100.0 60000 8885 1.165 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 96.0 36.8 2.39 3386 99.1 60000 9383 1.180 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760 96.0 36.8 2.39 3386 99.1 60000 9383 1.180 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2209 105.4 38.0 2.46 3383 97.8 60000 9504 1.166 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-19 106.0 38.5 2.49 3381 97.9 59661 9566 1.176 ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP 101.2 36.3 2.35 3374 100.0 60000 9027 1.184 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP19 ~approximation 101.3 36.3 2.35 3374 100.0 60000 9025 1.184 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 98.3 36.4 2.36 3373 100.0 60000 9142 1.189 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4350 105.2 36.5 2.37 3371 100.0 60000 9003 1.200 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 SSC 106.0 39.5 2.56 3365 95.9 56520 9879 1.193 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 ~approximation 103.9 37.7 2.44 3356 97.6 60000 9311 1.175 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 204 100.6 37.7 2.44 3356 97.6 60000 9311 1.175 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA4 103.9 37.7 2.44 3356 97.6 60000 9311 1.175 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot BigGame 94.4 35.4 2.29 3352 100.0 60000 8697 1.184 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 11 94.5 35.4 2.29 3351 100.0 60000 8684 1.184 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP14 ~approximation 106.0 38.5 2.49 3348 97.6 58260 9440 1.189 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831 106.0 36.8 2.39 3345 100.0 59523 8815 1.197 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895 91.1 33.1 2.14 3341 100.0 60000 8627 1.191 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 NT ~approximation 101.4 37.4 2.42 3334 98.9 60000 9031 1.188 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP11 ~approximation 91.9 33.4 2.16 3332 100.0 60000 8598 1.191 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15 91.9 33.4 2.16 3332 100.0 60000 8598 1.191 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA11 91.9 33.4 2.16 3332 100.0 60000 8598 1.191 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S385 106.0 38.9 2.52 3331 98.6 59129 9151 1.201 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N560 106.0 39.3 2.55 3331 94.8 53166 10071 1.231
Norma 203B 92.4 33.5 2.17 3329 100.0 60000 8525 1.193 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester Supreme 780 104.5 40.0 2.59 3324 97.7 60000 9047 1.179 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380 93.3 34.6 2.24 3321 99.9 60000 8711 1.196 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2 86.9 34.4 2.23 3319 100.0 60000 8397 1.196 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2213 106.0 38.9 2.52 3319 95.3 55076 9704 1.208
Lovex S070 100.6 36.1 2.34 3319 99.2 60000 8900 1.198 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old 93.8 34.4 2.23 3317 100.0 60000 8387 1.206 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R904 104.5 37.4 2.42 3314 96.6 60000 9025 1.181 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350 103.2 36.6 2.37 3313 98.6 60000 8836 1.183 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350 101.3 36.6 2.37 3313 98.6 60000 8822 1.183 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895 88.7 32.2 2.09 3312 100.0 60000 8336 1.191 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4320 93.9 33.5 2.17 3312 100.0 60000 8283 1.178 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 516 89.9 34.7 2.25 3311 99.9 60000 8603 1.188 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206H 89.1 32.3 2.09 3311 100.0 60000 8385 1.191 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R903 95.9 34.4 2.23 3311 100.0 60000 8314 1.205 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP7 NT ~approximation 95.1 34.8 2.26 3309 99.2 60000 8630 1.171 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP5/NP ~approximation 106.0 38.9 2.52 3307 96.7 52488 9790 1.241
Raufoss RA15 106.0 38.9 2.52 3307 96.7 52488 9790 1.241
Alliant Reloder-22 106.0 38.9 2.52 3307 96.7 52488 9790 1.241
Somchem S355 95.9 34.0 2.21 3305 100.0 60000 8327 1.200 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 SC 106.0 38.9 2.52 3304 95.3 57791 9235 1.193 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 9 89.7 33.6 2.18 3301 100.0 60000 8311 1.189 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate MAGPRO 106.0 40.9 2.65 3296 92.7 52145 9995 1.247
Lovex S065 99.3 35.2 2.28 3295 99.7 60000 8597 1.199 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R907 98.0 34.9 2.26 3291 98.6 60000 8726 1.194 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2208 94.3 33.2 2.15 3290 100.0 60000 8300 1.183 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon VARGET 94.6 33.2 2.15 3290 100.0 60000 8300 1.183 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4007 SSC 94.9 34.9 2.26 3290 98.6 60000 8719 1.194 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 7 88.0 34.3 2.22 3289 99.9 60000 8405 1.199 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 507 86.4 32.7 2.12 3287 100.0 60000 8078 1.191 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V 106.0 35.9 2.33 3286 100.0 57008 8252 1.209 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031 91.4 31.0 2.01 3285 100.0 60000 7721 1.196 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP3 NT ~approximation 96.8 34.9 2.26 3285 99.6 60000 8424 1.183 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4064 95.2 32.6 2.11 3282 100.0 60000 8137 1.188 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S341 88.0 34.4 2.23 3281 100.0 60000 8088 1.192 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N530 85.7 31.3 2.03 3281 100.0 60000 8001 1.189 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.6 88.9 33.2 2.15 3279 100.0 60000 7875 1.209 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520 88.9 33.2 2.15 3279 100.0 60000 7875 1.209 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S062 92.9 32.8 2.13 3277 100.0 60000 8004 1.202 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4064 97.7 33.1 2.15 3273 100.0 60000 7864 1.227 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 8208 XBR 87.6 31.8 2.06 3270 100.0 60000 7912 1.189 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S361 103.2 39.9 2.58 3270 95.8 60000 8787 1.194 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 201 86.3 32.0 2.07 3267 100.0 60000 7976 1.205 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R902 91.9 32.1 2.08 3257 100.0 60000 7874 1.206 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N540 91.7 33.6 2.18 3256 100.0 60000 7843 1.200 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 202 89.5 31.9 2.07 3255 100.0 60000 7713 1.200 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N150 101.0 34.6 2.24 3255 100.0 60000 7825 1.200 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H322 85.5 30.1 1.95 3246 100.0 60000 7516 1.190 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP2 NT ~approximation 89.0 32.0 2.08 3246 100.0 60000 7797 1.188 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2495 90.9 31.2 2.02 3246 100.0 60000 7582 1.233 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S060 89.6 31.6 2.05 3238 100.0 60000 7785 1.188 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R901 88.1 30.4 1.97 3234 100.0 60000 7589 1.214 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2700 95.9 35.9 2.33 3231 98.4 60000 8201 1.200 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206 89.0 32.0 2.07 3224 100.0 60000 7656 1.188 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Benchmark 87.0 31.1 2.01 3224 100.0 60000 7550 1.192 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N140 91.5 32.5 2.11 3223 100.0 60000 7415 1.200 ! Near Maximum !

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First column = Powder name
Second column = case fill ratio %
third = Charge weight in GRAINS
fourth = Charge weight in GRAMS
fifth = Velocity FPS
sixth = % of powder burned
seventh = Chamber pressure PSI
eighth = Muzzle pressure PSI (irrelevant)
ninth = Barrel time MS (irrelevant unless you know what it is and how it works

[Texas10]

Thanks, Zero. That's a TON of information, but I'm not sure how to make good use of it all. I see some powders are 100% burned, others have a very high muzzle pressure. How do you pick a powder out of a list like that, one that might be better than what I've been using?

Sorry for being slow to respond, my computer died and i'm having to borrow one until mine is repaired.

Forgot to mention a range report. Loaded up the 77 grain Nos CC and 4451 in .5 grain increments. One middle of the range load shot with a SD of 5 and ES of 11 with my Magnetospeed chronograph.

[The Old Coach]

Well, first of all eliminate all the ones that you can't get. That'll cut the list down by 3/4.

Look for the powders that are nearest 100% fill ratio. Powders that are too fast will have low fill ratios, and probably won't give you consistent burn. Obviously ratios significantly over 100% won't fit in the case at all. Although some powders like to be compressed a few percent. (I found that Varget is one, when used in the .223 case.) Important to know that (according to sources I've read) the large grain extruded ones get iffy, because the brains break under compression and burn faster.

(I didn't know you could get Quickload to output a table like that. Would be better if the fields were comma-delimited, so you could import it to Excel more easily.)

Go get yer own copy of QL. It's addictive.

[Zero333]

I would go for H-4350 or IMR-4350 first.

If I can't find those I would go for Viht. N550 or N150

Then probably H-414 / Win-760

[Texas10]

Thanks, Zero. I'd like it if you would be willing to share your thinking about your choices. I am pretty new here, and being a naturally curious type, always looking to learn something new.

My first go-to would be H4350 were it not for the fact that i just can't get it, nor IMR-4350. I started out loading with H4350 and it worked very well.

The VV's are also hard to find except online, then there's the haz fee. :frusty:

H414 and Win 760 are the same, and generally available locally, so that's a possibility.

But the one that caught my eye on your list is IMR-4831. Besides being generally available locally, the numbers seem to me to be quite good. Although a max load is 106%, how often do you find a good node at max velocity? Then there's the 100% burn, and the lower exit pressure. All good things for consistency, I would think?

The one I did pick, per Steelhead's suggestion, was IMR 4451 and although the numbers were quite good shooting the 77 NOS, it did not group well on the targets. I'd be curious if QL customer service would give me the numbers for that powder so I could compare it to your list. Might be very enlightening.

Thanks again for all the help, guys!

[Zero333]

H-414 and W-760 are the same powder under 2 different names and this powder is a ball powder, not a stick like most powders, so it flows through a powder meter very nicely.

Velocity of H-414/760 is always good tho most powders happen to shoot smaller groups at lower velocities, with the odd powder that shoots just as good at max, like Varget.

When using a ball powder like 414/760, I find Winchester primers work best and if you can't get WinLR primers than any Magnum primer is a better choice over a Standard Large rifle primer.

MR-4831 does look like a good candidate. Tho my experience with it is limited to 300winmag only, and it made good velocity and accuracy.

If you can get RL-17, that would be a good choice also. Most folk find it to be very accurate.

Looking over the list again, I see no reason why Varget couldn't work. Until you try you will never know.

If you don't mind a slightly compressed load, then H-4831sc will also work, and it's a powder that ALWAYS shoots small groups.

I would not contact QL asking for data. It's not their way. Best is to go through manuals to see what they say, or email nosler or hodgdon.

If you can extend the COAL to 2.600", then the QL list will change a little for the better, maybe giving you more options.

Have you checked out Noslers reloading site ???
http://load-data.nosler.com/load-data/22-250-remington/

click on the different bullet weight to get the data for them.

Here is a link to Sierras data. You can use their 80gr skm data for your 77gr CC.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/kdopwcxcqcimrud/h16TGLOjsb?preview=Sierra22-250Rem.pdf