New to rifles and confused...

[71velle]

New to rifle shooting and confused. I Been shooting pistol for a bit and the range I belong to has a nice 200 yard rifle range. So, I decided to buy a rifle to have a little fun and ended up with a Dicks special package rifle VT11 in 223. It was not very expensive and allowed me to do some shooting to see how much I liked spending time at the rifle range. Well I think I found a new hobby.

From reading a lot of stuff on the net it seems many people believe a quality stock in important for providing accuracy. The VT11 has the accutrigger which I already turned down and the heavy barrel. The stock in a plastic one with no reenforcement at all.

So, if I replace the stock should I expect an accuracy improvement? The stock options are endless and the price ranges are from little to a ton. I do like the look of the chassis options but would be about $750 when done. Is it worth putting money into this rifle that I own, or buy a rifle that has a better stock from the start?

Any advice or experiences would be great!

[wbm]

So, if I replace the stock should I expect an accuracy improvement?

Usually that is the case unless the rifle has accuracy issues.

How did the rifle shoot at the range? Do you reload or just shoot factory ammunition?

If you shoot factory, I would suggest you get a box of Federal AR223 50gr Tipped and try it.

Just shoot the rifle a lot! Then you will then have a pretty good idea of what the rifle is capable of, the kind of ammunition it likes and your own shooting capability.

[243LPR]

Check out the Choate Tactical stock. It's heavy but for a bench gun with its bedding block I think it's worth every penny.

[71velle]

I do not reload and not sure if I want to get into all that. So far the best grouping ammo in the American Eagle in 62 grain. I have tried 3 or 4 different 55 grain and not quite as good. I have tried some match ammo and it is better too but pretty expensive. I am trying to stick with ammo that is a little less expensive so I can shoot more.

Considering how cheep the factory stock looks on the inside I was hoping I could bolt on a stock and see a difference.

Is this the Choate I should be looking at? http://www.eabco.net/Choate-Tactical-Savage-Stock-Detachable-Mag-Version-II_p_14193.html

[Rick_W]

High quality ammunition with a factory stock should expect better accuracy than lower quality ammunition with an aftermarket stock - all other things being equal.

If you don't want to reload, your only option is ti spend the money to buy higher quality ammo.

You can shoot good groups with the cheaper ammo but the consistency isn't going to be there. What that means is that you won't know know whether bad groups are you or the ammo.

In the end, it all boils down to how small do you want your groups?

[big honkin jeep]

Are you shooting off of a Bi pod? Sometimes the heavy barreled rifles without the accustock will flex and touch the barrel if you're shooting from a bi pod or have the rifle resting near the tip of the fore end.
I actually just got one of the Choates that you posted a link to last week for a model 110FP in 25-06. It dropped right in and has plenty of barrel clearance. I like the spacers to adjust the length of pull too. I have not had a chance to shoot it yet but it seems like a very sturdy piece and the synthetic material is plenty thick. The style you linked to though heavy, is not nearly as heavy as the super sniper or ultimate varminter models.

As far as improving rifle accuracy, finding the ammo it likes has been the number one factor in my experience. Occasionally you can find a factory load that a rifle really likes but may have to go through a dozen or more different weights styles etc. to find it.
Over the years I have seen a lot of guys barking up the wrong tree dumping significant amounts of cash into a rifle that only needed a decent load. The easiest and least expensive way to improve every rifle you own is with a starter handloading kit. You can buy everything you need in a Lee Anniversary kit and the Lee manual dies powder bullets and primers to start for the price of that Choate stock, and shoot better ammo with premium components and tune it for your rifle. Yeah I know "scary" but very simple rewarding and most definitely conducive to shooting more. It's easy as falling off a log and as long as you follow a good manuals instructions completely safe.
Good luck

[The Coach]

The rifle is a Model 12FCV .223
I shot this 6 shot group with the factory tupperware stock off a bipod
Fiocchi 69gr. SMK's
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee127/splittherapy/Before%20bedding.jpg (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/splittherapy/media/Before%20bedding.jpg.html)


This 5 shot group is with a custom Boyd's Pro Varmint with Freedom Munitions 69gr. BTHP's
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee127/splittherapy/Freedom%2069gr%20102316.jpg (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/splittherapy/media/Freedom%2069gr%20102316.jpg.html)

[darkker]

I do not reload and not sure if I want to get into all that. So far the best grouping ammo in the American Eagle in 62 grain. I have tried 3 or 4 different 55 grain and not quite as good. I have tried some match ammo and it is better too but pretty expensive. I am trying to stick with ammo that is a little less expensive so I can shoot more.



If your are shooting "cheap", especially if it's ball bullets; NEVER use that as your benchmark for accuracy capability. Cheap ammo is just that. NO ONE ever won camp Perry with a Wolf Ammo can, there is a reason.....

[71velle]

Thanks for the replies!!!

I went to the range yesterday and I think the reloading is going to be more important. I was shooting cheep ammo and the shots were very inconsistent, so I loaded a mag of Hornady 68 grain match and wow!!! The group of 5 @ 100 yards fits under the penny.


Sorry the pic is so big

[IM

G]http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e29/artmalibu/fire/25FA2581-D56C-4106-B5BD-0F15BF943E4E_zpsz11blfmn.jpg (http://s36.photobucket.com/user/artmalibu/media/fire/25FA2581-D56C-4106-B5BD-0F15BF943E4E_zpsz11blfmn.jpg.html)[/IMG]

[Texas10]

That's what's called "out of the box dead accurate". Don't ya love it?!

Reloading, especially when talking about .223, is all about tuning a load to take advantage of your barrels harmonics and getting the tightest groups possible. Saving money is never going to happen with a 223 simply because store bought ammo is so cheap.

So if you're not going to hand load, the only way to get increased accuracy, all human factors aside, is to tune the barrel to the load. You can do that with a barrel tuner, typically used in 22LR because, once again, you can't hand load 22LR to tune it to the barrel, so you tune the barrel to the load.

[Hemi45]

So if you're not going to hand load, the only way to get increased accuracy, all human factors aside, is to tune the barrel to the load. You can do that with a barrel tuner, typically used in 22LR because, once again, you can't hand load 22LR to tune it to the barrel, so you tune the barrel to the load.

I never knew there was such a thing/process! Are there downsides to this? Is it one and done or can it repeated?

[71velle]

That's what's called "out of the box dead accurate". Don't ya love it?!

Reloading, especially when talking about .223, is all about tuning a load to take advantage of your barrels harmonics and getting the tightest groups possible. Saving money is never going to happen with a 223 simply because store bought ammo is so cheap.

So if you're not going to hand load, the only way to get increased accuracy, all human factors aside, is to tune the barrel to the load. You can do that with a barrel tuner, typically used in 22LR because, once again, you can't hand load 22LR to tune it to the barrel, so you tune the barrel to the load.

I do love it. The ammo I used for that is over $1 a round you dont think I could save some money loading my own.

[Texas10]

About the cheapest you can hand load a quality round for 223 -at todays prices - is about 40cents. To do that you're going to have to invest in some quality reloading equipment, tools, dies, instruments, books, brass cleaners, chemicals, not to mention an assortment of powders, primers, bullets, brass and various sundries that make it all fit and work. I would put a minimum price of a thousand dollars just to get started with base line equipment, nothing fancy.

If tune your barrel to the load...go here for starters..http://ads.midwayusa.com/product/593560/limbsaver-sharpshooter-x-ring-standard-barrel-rubber?cm_mmc=pf_ci_connexity-_-Gunsmithing%20-%20Gun%20Parts%20-%20Rifle%20-%20(Aftermarket)-_-Limbsaver-_-593560

You can buy cheaper ammo and tune the barrel. Total cost, about ten bucks.

You can find good cheap ammo for under 50 cents a round all day long that'll shoot under MOA without the tuner, but then you miss all the fun you'd get falling down the reloading rabbit hole.

Wait, I just heard a knock at the door.....yep, some guys with a noose wanting to throw me a good ol' fashion Texas necktie party....Something about talking heresy...

[big honkin jeep]

The Lee Anniversary kit is a fine starter kit and should have everything you need except the Lee manual, a .223 case length gauge, a Lee deluxe .223 die set, a pound of powder, a box of bullets (looks like the 68gr Hornadys would be a good choice) and a couple of hundred primers. Total should put you a little North of 200$ or maybe just a little more including consumables. Like Savage rifles the lee equipment is the best thing going for the money. I started with this kit decades ago and it still works just fine and loads some unbelievably accurate ammo. (Yeah Ive added a few pieces since then)

[71velle]

What are the cheeper loads that will give the consistant performance? The cheep stuff will give me 1 good 5 shot group out of 50 rounds

[Rick_W]

What are the cheeper loads that will give the consistant performance? The cheep stuff will give me 1 good 5 shot group out of 50 rounds
None - consistently.

Big Honkin Jeep gave good advice as to getting into reloading on a budget and still being able to manufacture consistent handloads.

It may take you a little longer and you'll have to pay a little more attention than the people who use higher dollar equipment, but the LEE press, dies, and scale will give you more consistent ammo than the cheap stuff that the big manufacturers put out. Then it will be up to you to tweak the components/loads for smaller groups (seating depths, powder charges, different primers, different bullets. etc).

$200-$250 to get started reloading with the single-stage LEE press.

What I started with:
LEE hand press (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/650614/lee-breech-lock-hand-press-kit) ($50)
LEE hand priming tool (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/413473/lee-new-auto-prime-xr-hand-priming-tool) ($20)
LEE Ultimate 4-die set (includes factory crimp die) (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/628930/lee-ultimate-4-die-set-223-remington) ($45)
LEE dippers (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/943305/lee-improved-powder-measure-kit) (not needed with a powder measure, but I was in a place I couldn't use a single stage press or powder measure) ($12)
LEE Perfect powder measure (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/540522/lee-perfect-powder-measure) ($26)

Total - $153 at current MidwayUSA pricing. You may be able to find "better" equipment at the same or lower prices by shopping for used or clearance.

Add a package (100 pcs) of Sierra Match King 69 gr bullets at $27 and you're up to $180.

One pound of powder (bought locally) should run you $25-$30 depending on where you live.

And you should already have your once fired brass to begin with. If not, you can spend anywhere from $25 to $100 for 100 pieces of brass.

[Rick_W]

Oh yeah - forgot to add that package of 100 primers for $3.50 - $5 depending on brand, type and your location.

The LEE Challenger Anniversary kit (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/423081/lee-challenger-breech-lock-single-stage-press-anniversary-kit) has everything you need to start except the dies for $130.99

After your initial purchase of equipment, the only consumables are primers, powder, bullets and the occasional need to replace brass.

How much was the stock you were looking at?

[Wide Glide]

None - consistently.

Big Honkin Jeep gave good advice as to getting into reloading on a budget and still being able to manufacture consistent handloads.

It may take you a little longer and you'll have to pay a little more attention than the people who use higher dollar equipment, but the LEE press, dies, and scale will give you more consistent ammo than the cheap stuff that the big manufacturers put out. Then it will be up to you to tweak the components/loads for smaller groups (seating depths, powder charges, different primers, different bullets. etc).

$200-$250 to get started reloading with the single-stage LEE press.

What I started with:
LEE hand press (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/650614/lee-breech-lock-hand-press-kit) ($50)
LEE hand priming tool (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/413473/lee-new-auto-prime-xr-hand-priming-tool) ($20)
LEE Ultimate 4-die set (includes factory crimp die) (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/628930/lee-ultimate-4-die-set-223-remington) ($45)
LEE dippers (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/943305/lee-improved-powder-measure-kit) (not needed with a powder measure, but I was in a place I couldn't use a single stage press or powder measure) ($12)
LEE Perfect powder measure (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/540522/lee-perfect-powder-measure) ($26)

Total - $153 at current MidwayUSA pricing. You may be able to find "better" equipment at the same or lower prices by shopping for used or clearance.

Add a package (100 pcs) of Sierra Match King 69 gr bullets at $27 and you're up to $180.

One pound of powder (bought locally) should run you $25-$30 depending on where you live.

And you should already have your once fired brass to begin with. If not, you can spend anywhere from $25 to $100 for 100 pieces of brass.

this is how i got started because i didnt have space for a reloading bench. when i moved and could have a bench i bought the anniversary breech lock challenger press and a HF work bench

that original hand press setup was enough that i got better results than i ever had with factory ammo even with my reloading inexperience. it also gave me much more improvement than aftermarket stocks. the stocks worked wonders but not like the reloads did. right now i've got stocks from hs precision, choate, and bell and carlson. i prefer the bell and carlson stocks to either of the others.

as for saving money no you wont load match quality ammo cheaper than bulk crap ammo but will be able to load match quality ammo for about the same price as non bulk cheap stuff.

youll never really save money though. you'll get addicted then buy expensive gadgets then get a better job so you can afford more expensive gadgets, then go on 4hrs of sleep so you have time to use the expensive gadgets and spend all your time at work thinking about the next range trip. its a vicius cycle.....

my original kit with the addition of a tumbler and digital scale worked fine but i've got a whole bedroom full of reloading gear now from upgrading and adding piece by piece over the past few years.

if i were you i'd spend that stock money on a reloading setup unless you can afford both.

[foxx]

^^^Yep.

[big honkin jeep]

Be sure and add this manual. "Lee modern reloading 2nd edition, revised" Reloading manual. It runs about $20 and will tell you everything you need to know. Read it up to the load data part starts, and keep it handy and you're ready to start. An excellent manual for beginning on Lee equipment.
With the manual, an anniversary kit, your caliber specific items either the deluxe die set" or "ultimate die set,( I really like the neck sizer and it keeps from having to lube cases for a bolt gun and comes as a pert of eitheer of these die sets) and a .223 case length gauge (I'd order all these items together to save shipping) and maybe put a box of bullets in the order. After that pick up a pound of powder and some small rifle primers locally and you're ready to go.