Ballistics Calculator

[upSLIDEdown]

The true BC is determined by the velocity of a particular rifle, not Brian Litz or anybody else.
Which is why some bullet makers like Cutting Edge for example don't list BC numbers.
They sound good, and like other things in life they can help sell a product.
For sure the most accurate information is better than less accurate information, and I'm not advocating not trying to obtain that.
But all of that aside, and speaking only to those who hunt, realize that while your obtaining your perfect data for the perfect first round hit,
the animal might well have moved 100 yds requiring different data. Its also very possible that move could have taken it into an area where you wont be seeing it again.
Also be aware that the ammo stored in your vehicle is affected by temperature changes, and none of your equiptment can tell you how much.
Are you aware of what powders are most affected by that? Ill tell you one good way to find out. Frankly, its the only way to find out.
You can choose to listen to experts, many of who are also nonpartisipents as hunters. Or you can choose to just listen, and then go hunt, and find out for yourself.


I don't just listen. I don't hunt either though. Not currently anyway. I do, however shoot. Quite often. And almost always between 500 and 1200 yards. And most of it is done on a clock at a match. 10 rounds in 90 seconds is typical. You can preach your way all day long, and talk down about Ballistic apps/engines almost you want. The fact remains that I can go out wherever, with my 6.5 Creedmoor, my data (ballistic app on my phone), a Kestrel, and a rangefinder, and make solid hits and most any distance inside 1200 yards with no issues. Doesn't matter what the weather is today, tomorrow, or next week. The kestrel will give me that info real time. Just because you don't care to utilize any of the modern advancements in the shooting / ballistics world, doesn't mean they're useless. Quite the contrary, actually.

[LoneWolf]

That's what he doesn't get. He's probably shot 1000's of rounds in 3 decades at those distances. We've shot 1000's of rounds at those distances in just a few years and the tools available have made us better shooters in a hurry. It's amazing what a product produced by a Rocket Scientist who loves shooting is capable of....


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[LongRange]

That's what he doesn't get. He's probably shot 1000's of rounds in 3 decades at those distances. We've shot 1000's of rounds at those distances in just a few years and the tools available have made us better shooters in a hurry. It's amazing what a product produced by a Rocket Scientist who loves shooting is capable of....


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and some of us have shot 1000s of rounds in a few months lol!! i just looked back and i put the 6mm creed together on july 2nd of this year and as of last saturday have 1125 rounds through it now...so 110 days and if we want to be technical its actually only 31 days because i can only shoot on the weekends...works out to a little over 36 rounds per day.

[LongRange]

I don't just listen. I don't hunt either though. Not currently anyway. I do, however shoot. Quite often. And almost always between 500 and 1200 yards. And most of it is done on a clock at a match. 10 rounds in 90 seconds is typical. You can preach your way all day long, and talk down about Ballistic apps/engines almost you want. The fact remains that I can go out wherever, with my 6.5 Creedmoor, my data (ballistic app on my phone), a Kestrel, and a rangefinder, and make solid hits and most any distance inside 1200 yards with no issues. Doesn't matter what the weather is today, tomorrow, or next week. The kestrel will give me that info real time. Just because you don't care to utilize any of the modern advancements in the shooting / ballistics world, doesn't mean they're useless. Quite the contrary, actually.

very well put but the problem is some ppl are so set in their ways they wont even try anything new.

[yobuck]

your wrong....heres the BC on the cutting edge 115g 6mm bullet....which is pretty sad for the price!

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=MTH_K02

The Cutting Edge facility is located in Drifting PA. The owners name is Dan Smitco, and its less than an hour from our camp.
Ive been there, had the tour, and watched them being made. At that time, which was about 4 years back they were not advertising BC numbers and he told me why.
I'm sure there would be lots of label readers who need to know that type information, and possibly
that changed their way of thinking on that, but that dosent change any facts.
If you want a true picture of what bullet performs better at say 1500 yds, there is only one good way of doing that. And its the same way as getting an exact zero for your gun, but again, to each his own.
For the record I don't use Cutting Edge bullets, i have tried them and find the plain jane SMKs and Hornadys work just fine in my guns.
But, from what I'm told, by the now few people I know who still shoot in the matches, custom bullets are what is primarily being used.
But I can tell you the walls in that facility have lots of enviable elk and mule deer trophys hanging on them.
All taken in Idaho by him and his group by long range hunting, and supposedly with his bullets. Now call me old, or whatever you choose, but if I wanted information on where to go and how to kill a nice elk long range, id be asking somebody like him, even though he isn't a (ahem) shooter. For sure I wouldn't seek out someone who does pretty good in f class shooting, who also owns a rangefinder and a Kestral. But that's just me, and I am aware were in the information age.
I'm also aware of the importance of accurate information for competition where sighters aren't permitted, even though I consider that just plain dumb. I'm also familiar with rangefinders of every type, having owned them and used them for more years than most reading this have been breathing. In fact, if you ever decide your rangefinder is the best, bring it around, and we can compare rangefinders. I'm also aware of what a Kestral is and what it does and how it works, but bring that around also.
As for the number of rounds shot and barrels burned up, that's actually meaningless as to this discussion. Fact is many average Joe shooters can become very competitive in a reasonably short period of time if he or she dedicates themselves to that. Number of rounds fired don't count, results count, and some will always be better at that than others, regardless of round count.
And the fact also is average Joe shooter is probably already good enough to shoot far better at long range than he realizes. And that statement alone is where much of the disagreement here stems from. Interpet that anyway you choose.
In summation ill just say this. If a person wants to go all out in an attempt to get the best information possible for dialing first round hits that's perfectly fine and why should it not be. But realize that you still wont always be making first round hits. And also realize regardless of what your being led to believe here, you could still make a very high percentage of them, even if you didn't have a Kestral and an iPhone with the latest program and for some of us, that's fine also. We have several iphones in our camp by the way, and I'm very familiar with them. They are fine if you have time, but don't count on that when hunting. What counts is score, or in this case dead animals.
Send one over there and have another in your hand ready as the empty case is coming out. You will likely have it on the ground before Dr Whozeewatzit over there gets his half arsed wind reading.
And it will be half arsed where I hunt, and you can take that fact to the bank and cash it.
Go to a 1000yd benchrest match and count the gadgets for determing shooting conditions. Then watch them shoot. Pretty much all those guys at least in PA also hunt long range. Ask them about that also.

[LongRange]

The Cutting Edge facility is located in Drifting PA. The owners name is Dan Smitco, and its less than an hour from our camp.
Ive been there, had the tour, and watched them being made. At that time, which was about 4 years back they were not advertising BC numbers and he told me why.
I'm sure there would be lots of label readers who need to know that type information, and possibly
that changed their way of thinking on that, but that dosent change any facts.
If you want a true picture of what bullet performs better at say 1500 yds, there is only one good way of doing that. And its the same way as getting an exact zero for your gun, but again, to each his own.
For the record I don't use Cutting Edge bullets, i have tried them and find the plain jane SMKs and Hornadys work just fine in my guns.
But, from what I'm told, by the now few people I know who still shoot in the matches, custom bullets are what is primarily being used.
But I can tell you the walls in that facility have lots of enviable elk and mule deer trophys hanging on them.
All taken in Idaho by him and his group by long range hunting, and supposedly with his bullets. Now call me old, or whatever you choose, but if I wanted information on where to go and how to kill a nice elk long range, id be asking somebody like him, even though he isn't a (ahem) shooter. For sure I wouldn't seek out someone who does pretty good in f class shooting, who also owns a rangefinder and a Kestral. But that's just me, and I am aware were in the information age.
I'm also aware of the importance of accurate information for competition where sighters aren't permitted, even though I consider that just plain dumb. I'm also familiar with rangefinders of every type, having owned them and used them for more years than most reading this have been breathing. In fact, if you ever decide your rangefinder is the best, bring it around, and we can compare rangefinders. I'm also aware of what a Kestral is and what it does and how it works, but bring that around also.
As for the number of rounds shot and barrels burned up, that's actually meaningless as to this discussion. Fact is many average Joe shooters can become very competitive in a reasonably short period of time if he or she dedicates themselves to that. Number of rounds fired don't count, results count, and some will always be better at that than others, regardless of round count.
And the fact also is average Joe shooter is probably already good enough to shoot far better at long range than he realizes. And that statement alone is where much of the disagreement here stems from. Interpet that anyway you choose.
In summation ill just say this. If a person wants to go all out in an attempt to get the best information possible for dialing first round hits that's perfectly fine and why should it not be. But realize that you still wont always be making first round hits. And also realize regardless of what your being led to believe here, you could still make a very high percentage of them, even if you didn't have a Kestral and an iPhone with the latest program and for some of us, that's fine also. We have several iphones in our camp by the way, and I'm very familiar with them. They are fine if you have time, but don't count on that when hunting. What counts is score, or in this case dead animals.
Send one over there and have another in your hand ready as the empty case is coming out. You will likely have it on the ground before Dr Whozeewatzit over there gets his half arsed wind reading.
And it will be half arsed where I hunt, and you can take that fact to the bank and cash it.
Go to a 1000yd benchrest match and count the gadgets for determing shooting conditions. Then watch them shoot. Pretty much all those guys at least in PA also hunt long range. Ask them about that also.

ok Buck like lonewolf this will be my last reply to you because im tired of the NEVER ENDING argument with you about all of this.

first your the one that brought up cutting edge i just pointed out that your statement was wrong so you(like usual)start throwing out names and pointing out that their operation is in PA and just down the street from your camp and a lot of useless to the thread info that honestly i could careless about...the fact remains the BCs ARE listed and are very low for the price!
now you say the best way to find what bullet shoots best at 1500yds is to shoot them and i agree...but i can tell you before firing 1 round that a bullet with a .420BC is not going to preform as well as a bullet with a .620BC...and thats a fact!

i also find it funny you pulled the old card...thats a first! as far as killing an elk goes...im not a hunter and never will be unless the time comes that it would be the only way to feed my family but if the time ever comes anything inside 1000yds will be a 1 shot kill...this is where the fact that number of rounds and barrels does in fact mean something...do you think the guy that shoots a 1000 rounds in a life time is going to know his equipment as well as a guy that shoots 1000s of rounds a year? if you do thats funny and your wrong again!

you say "competitions where sighters aren't permitted is just plain dumb"? well every match i shoot starts off with a long distance cold bore shot...our varmint match is at 850yds at an anorexic coyote...our PRS match is different every time and most time you have to range the target with you reticle to get the distance...once again this is where barrels and rounds shot matters!

i will also point out the fact that there are outstanding shooters all over the world not just in PA like you like to imply...google it and see for yourself...if you spent a little time sending rounds down range instead of turning every thread posted into a hunting debate and arguing your right and everyone else is wrong you might not need to kill all those innocent rocks.

to the OP...sorry to clutter up your thread...and as has already been posted here your app is only as good as the info you enter into it...i use shooter and my drops are dead on and verified out to 1320yds...get your info entered as accurate as you can and then go out and true it up in the field.

[yobuck]

ok Buck like lonewolf this will be my last reply to you because im tired of the NEVER ENDING argument with you about all of this.

first your the one that brought up cutting edge i just pointed out that your statement was wrong so you(like usual)start throwing out names and pointing out that their operation is in PA and just down the street from your camp and a lot of useless to the thread info that honestly i could careless about...the fact remains the BCs ARE listed and are very low for the price!
now you say the best way to find what bullet shoots best at 1500yds is to shoot them and i agree...but i can tell you before firing 1 round that a bullet with a .420BC is not going to preform as well as a bullet with a .620BC...and thats a fact!

i also find it funny you pulled the old card...thats a first! as far as killing an elk goes...im not a hunter and never will be unless the time comes that it would be the only way to feed my family but if the time ever comes anything inside 1000yds will be a 1 shot kill...this is where the fact that number of rounds and barrels does in fact mean something...do you think the guy that shoots a 1000 rounds in a life time is going to know his equipment as well as a guy that shoots 1000s of rounds a year? if you do thats funny and your wrong again!

you say "competitions where sighters aren't permitted is just plain dumb"? well every match i shoot starts off with a long distance cold bore shot...our varmint match is at 850yds at an anorexic coyote...our PRS match is different every time and most time you have to range the target with you reticle to get the distance...once again this is where barrels and rounds shot matters!

i will also point out the fact that there are outstanding shooters all over the world not just in PA like you like to imply...google it and see for yourself...if you spent a little time sending rounds down range instead of turning every thread posted into a hunting debate and arguing your right and everyone else is wrong you might not need to kill all those innocent rocks.

to the OP...sorry to clutter up your thread...and as has already been posted here your app is only as good as the info you enter into it...i use shooter and my drops are dead on and verified out to 1320yds...get your info entered as accurate as you can and then go out and true it up in the field.


The last sentence above id agree with, but would add that it will possibly change 15 minits from now, which requires another true up.
And, provided you shoot where there are no tree branches.

[Idaho]

to the OP...sorry to clutter up your thread...and as has already been posted here your app is only as good as the info you enter into it...i use shooter and my drops are dead on and verified out to 1320yds...get your info entered as accurate as you can and then go out and true it up in the field.


Thanks, one thing that I have managed to pull out of this thread is that I need to pay closer attention to detail, MV - scope height - actual zero range, before i can expect a ballistics calculator to even be close. I need more range time and accurate field observations to get there. Guess I will have to shoot the rifle more. ****. (big grin here)

[LoneWolf]

[/QUOTE]Guess I will have to shoot the rifle more. ****. (big grin here)[/QUOTE]

This is the #1 key to go shooting! The skills diminish very quickly!


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[LongRange]

Thanks, one thing that I have managed to pull out of this thread is that I need to pay closer attention to detail, MV - scope height - actual zero range, before i can expect a ballistics calculator to even be close. I need more range time and accurate field observations to get there. Guess I will have to shoot the rifle more. ****. (big grin here)

Exactly right...nothing will help you more than actual trigger time.


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[Idaho]

Exactly right...nothing will help you more than actual trigger time.

I've spent a TON of trigger time with this rifle in the last two years. I can now hit targets at 1000 yards with it. Consistently. Right now I'm trying to develop an accurate MOA drop chart to refer to after I've determined range with my rangefinder. I'm close but not quite close enough. I did not realize that I need to pay attention to how high I was shooting at 100 yards, even if it is only and inch or so, or exactly how high the scope is from the center of the bore. Then, I need exact field observations at various yardages out 1000 to get an accurate correction. I will get there, thanks to you guys.

BTW, there seems to be a fixation with a 1000 yard rifle under $1000 and I thought I was there. Then I started adding up what I had paid for everything, new Model 10 - McGowan 26 inch varmint barrel - Vortex Diamondback HP scope and realized that I was over $1000. Now I'm saving my pennies to by a Vortex Viper PST at the end of this year. Then, I would not sell the rifle for $2000! It is a shooter for sure. The money sure piles up when you are having fun. HA

[LongRange]

Yes it does...next thing you know your into it more than a down payment on a house


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[upSLIDEdown]

I've spent a TON of trigger time with this rifle in the last two years. I can now hit targets at 1000 yards with it. Consistently. Right now I'm trying to develop an accurate MOA drop chart to refer to after I've determined range with my rangefinder. I'm close but not quite close enough. I did not realize that I need to pay attention to how high I was shooting at 100 yards, even if it is only and inch or so, or exactly how high the scope is from the center of the bore. Then, I need exact field observations at various yardages out 1000 to get an accurate correction. I will get there, thanks to you guys.



Oh yeah. All of those "little" things make a huge difference at longer ranges. Your zero definitely needs to be just that, a zero. Most commonly at 100 yards.

Making sure the inputs are as accurate as possible will help things start to line up a lot better. Once you KNOW those things that should be a factual definite measured input are correct, things should line up pretty close as long as you're using a good app/solver.

[yobuck]

Idaho, I wish all the best to you in your quest for your goal. And I apoligise for my part in dragging your question around as it was.
I am not disagreeing with the others here with regard to good data. I'm simply saying data is constantly changing, and even much more so in places like the steep high mountains of a place like Idaho.
As for the shooting part, certainly more is always better.
But enough is also enough, and that is determined by each individual and what they are attempting to accomplish. Your own experiences
will ultimately dictate what your needs are.
You will also find that a l/r hunter on the flat open plains of Wyoming, might have a different opinion of shooting methods than another in the steep mountains of a place like Idaho, or even NC PA.
Ask yourself how you shoot your best, and make every effort to duplicate that in the places you select to shoot while hunting.
You will also find there will be days spent hunting as opposed to maybe mere seconds spent shooting.
So first and foremost concentrate on how best to do that part, and you will then find thats the key to the long range shooting part also.
If your serious about this, id recommend getting serious about talking to those preferably in your area who are successful doing it.
Ive already mentioned one name. But the fact is eastern hunters in large numbers travel west every year to hunt long range.
When they do they take the same equiptment and apply the same methods they use in the east. Certainly their chart will be different due to elevation differences but that's all.
Western hunters have the luxury of more animals and more variety. Therefore they need not be as intense while hunting for the most part.
So the methods most use would be considered more lax by eastern standards, and I'm referring to long range hunting only and (most) hunters.
But by being lax, they are also missing opurtunities. So again, get the hunting part right, and the shooting part will also become much easier.

Call Kevin Cram, Montour Rifles. I hardly know the guy, he is young, a very good gun builder, and also very experienced in l/r hunting and target shooting as well. He also is a member of a camp very close to ours. So he can tell you just how f o s I am and so can the next guy on the list.
Bruce Baer, who has built numerous 1000 yd competition guns some of which are record holders. But he is also very experienced in long range hunting, including western hunting.
Ask them what the priority list should look like for someone starting into long range hunting.
BTW, I'm told, that some of those very accurate guns sold on the LRH site are actually built by Kevin Cram.
I'm also told that he isn't a Savage hater.

[upSLIDEdown]

Idaho, I wish all the best to you in your quest for your goal. And I apoligise for my part in dragging your question around as it was.
I am not disagreeing with the others here with regard to good data. I'm simply saying data is constantly changing, and even much more so in places like the steep high mountains of a place like Idaho.
As for the shooting part, certainly more is always better.
But enough is also enough, and that is determined by each individual and what they are attempting to accomplish. Your own experiences
will ultimately dictate what your needs are.
You will also find that a l/r hunter on the flat open plains of Wyoming, might have a different opinion of shooting methods than another in the steep mountains of a place like Idaho, or even NC PA.
Ask yourself how you shoot your best, and make every effort to duplicate that in the places you select to shoot while hunting.
You will also find there will be days spent hunting as opposed to maybe mere seconds spent shooting.
So first and foremost concentrate on how best to do that part, and you will then find thats the key to the long range shooting part also.
If your serious about this, id recommend getting serious about talking to those preferably in your area who are successful doing it.
Ive already mentioned one name. But the fact is eastern hunters in large numbers travel west every year to hunt long range.
When they do they take the same equiptment and apply the same methods they use in the east. Certainly their chart will be different due to elevation differences but that's all.
Western hunters have the luxury of more animals and more variety. Therefore they need not be as intense while hunting for the most part.
So the methods most use would be considered more lax by eastern standards, and I'm referring to long range hunting only and (most) hunters.
But by being lax, they are also missing opurtunities. So again, get the hunting part right, and the shooting part will also become much easier.

Call Kevin Cram, Montour Rifles. I hardly know the guy, he is young, a very good gun builder, and also very experienced in l/r hunting and target shooting as well. He also is a member of a camp very close to ours. So he can tell you just how f o s I am and so can the next guy on the list.
Bruce Baer, who has built numerous 1000 yd competition guns some of which are record holders. But he is also very experienced in long range hunting, including western hunting.
Ask them what the priority list should look like for someone starting into long range hunting.
BTW, I'm told, that some of those very accurate guns sold on the LRH site are actually built by Kevin Cram.
I'm also told that he isn't a Savage hater.

You do realize there is a separate hunting sub forum, right? And this thread isn't in it? It's in the competitive shooting sub forum.

Just making sure. 😉

[yobuck]

Well I was of the opinion he was more of a hunter than a target shooter. But thanks for setting me straight on that.
Besides, ive never known target shooters to need a devise or a program to dial up from their zero to a known target distance.

[LoneWolf]

Yobuck, grab your best rifle and come down to Gretna, VA on the 23rd. We'll put all your methods to the test and see how you fair in one of our matches. Until then it is senseless to argue! I'm calling you out. I'll even put money on you vs me to see who places better and hits more targets! Velocity restrictions are 3100fps and nothing bigger than 30Cal. Let's shoot it out instead of this internet banter!


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[Robinhood]

I'm in for 20 in gas money post arrival. Let me know.

[upSLIDEdown]

Well I was of the opinion he was more of a hunter than a target shooter. But thanks for setting me straight on that.
Besides, ive never known target shooters to need a devise or a program to dial up from their zero to a known target distance.

Lol, I'm sure. You're of the opinion that the only reason anyone pulls a trigger is to hunt.

And you haven't been to a PRS or any type of precision long range match then. This isn't 600 or 1000 yard benchrest where the target is always the same size and distance.


Yobuck, grab your best rifle and come down to Gretna, VA on the 23rd. We'll put all your methods to the test and see how you fair in one of our matches. Until then it is senseless to argue! I'm calling you out. I'll even put money on you vs me to see who places better and hits more targets! Velocity restrictions are 3100fps and nothing bigger than 30Cal. Let's shoot it out instead of this internet banter!


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This has been discussed before. But it never happens. If it does, it dang well better be a match I'll be attending, and the October match isn't one of them. November will give everyone time to prepare anyway. 😉

[Idaho]

yobuck, no worries. I enjoyed reading it all. I primarily hunt varmints and predators. Rock chucks, jack rabbits, coyotes and wolves if I can ever find one. No big game. I just like to know that when I line up on a critter I'm going to get it with one shot more often than not. Small targets at up to 500 yards. The long shots at 800 and 1000 are just for fun. Although it helps to know that if the opportunity arises I may be able to hit a coyote at long range.

You guys are all good. Thanks,