bullet runout.

[chetc]

i have (2) 223 dies sets one is the lee FS set and the Forster 223 Bench rest set, after loading some on each set, the Fortser does produce a truer load round, i am getting approx .001 some .0005, i happened to have my bullet run out gage with me at the range last week there was a guy there shooting the same bullet as me, his loaded rounds were .0005 and under, he was using the redding die. wonder if anyone who has been down this road, is there any difference in 200 yd groups between the .0005 runout and rounds about perfect.

ps is the Redding die about the best out there, any other ones to consider

Chet

[hafejd30]

Delete

[hafejd30]

ive checked mine, in a factory barrel, and the gun shot the same with .0000 as it did with .002-.003.

Never checked with my customs because I use lee collet dies and my runout is under .002 for the majority and all rounds shoot great. I can assure you that there will not be a difference with .0005 vs .0000. Even with the tightest chamber tolerances I'd dought you would see a difference

Anything under .001 is outstanding already if you ask me

[Texas10]

I am really hoping some of the gray hair experts will weigh in on your question, Chetc. I see the words "run out" used to describe several conditions, yet never does it seem to be defined which condition the prescribed procedure fixes.

I see four different kinds of run out.

1 Neck run out. The whole neck is off axis with the cartridge, a result of using an expander in a FL die.
2 Neck wall run out. Due to neck wall thickness variations.
3 Bullet run out. Due to neck wall stretching inconsistently as bullet is seated
4 Bullet tip run out.

Add together and results are bullet axis is off axis with the bore and tilted too.

I am shooting my 223 at 200 yds too, and learning just how much more skill it takes over 100 yd targets. Been quite educational!

[m12lrs]

Personally I don't worry about runout very much for average reloads.

I do sort my rounds for long range precision work. .003 and under in the good pile and over is for sightseers.

To keep runout minimal this is what I do.

Start with quality brass. I use Lapua

I use a co-ax press.

Use a quality sizing die. I prefer the forster bench rest dies but there are many out there that work just fine

Check runout on the necks after first firing and resizing. Cull those with obvious problems. Sometimes I clean them up with a neck turner and try again.

I have found that the Wilson straight line seater is the best seating die for me.

I do have custom dies made from my fired brass. If I cull the brass I use in these dies there is no doubt they produce better ammo.

[Robinhood]

I see four different kinds of run out.

1 Neck run out. The whole neck is off axis with the cartridge, a result of using an expander in a FL die.
2 Neck wall run out. Due to neck wall thickness variations.
3 Bullet run out. Due to neck wall stretching inconsistently as bullet is seated
4 Bullet tip run out.

Good observation. For a path forward, in most instances;

#1 will ultimately lead to #4 bullet R.O.
#2 will often lead to #3

#1 fixed by increasing the neck sizing diameter and possibly decreasing the diameter of the expander ball.
#2 fixed by neck turning.
#3 fixed by solving # 2.
#4 fixed by solving #'s 1 and/or 2.



Use a quality sizing die. I prefer the forster bench rest dies

This is good advice also. Forster has recognized the #1 fix.

[Steelhead]

.002 and under and I'm happy.
I started a new batch of brass, new production Winchester, to compare to my older Winchester/Olin brass.
Its staying under .004.
Ill neck turn after it all gets once fired and see if stays as straight and lasts like my old stuff.

[jim_k]

If you roll a loaded round across a flat table, and you can't see any wobble in the tip of the bullet, it's going to shoot fine. The only runout I check with my Neco gauge is loaded cartridge runout. This is checked against the ogive of the bullet fairly close to the tip. See Neco gauge instructions. It got so boring that I quit doing it. The most important thing about runout is to "square your die" when inserting the die into the press. You need to either screw the die down onto the top of the press ram as you fully tighten the die, or use a spacer (like a thick flat washer or several of them) which is square, and place that on top of the ram when screwing the die in. You must use a spacer on the factory bullet seating dies, or you may get a crimp in the case mouth. You don't need a crimp. The bullet seater die must be away from the top of the ram when the ram is completely up, with clearance at least the width of a nickel, to prevent crimping. So you insert the die, screwing it down onto the spacer, and remove the spacer when the die is locked in place, then proceed with the operation as planned. Chamber bullet seaters like the Forster are screwed down on top of the press per the instructions included with the die. Use of the spacer is optional, but probably a good idea. They do not have a crimp. Obviously, if you are full-length sizing, the die can be screwed down completely onto the top of the ram, leaving the case holder in place. The case holders are square, BTW.

[BillPa]

What's lost in this conversation, those fancy runout gadgets measure TIR, "Total Indicated Runout". Actual off center is 1/2 of TIR so an indicated RO of 001" its really only out .0005".
Bill

[m12lrs]

If you roll a loaded round across a flat table, and you can't see any wobble in the tip of the bullet, it's going to shoot fine. The only runout I check with my Neco gauge is loaded cartridge runout. This is checked against the ogive of the bullet fairly close to the tip. See Neco gauge instructions. It got so boring that I quit doing it. The most important thing about runout is to "square your die" when inserting the die into the press. You need to either screw the die down onto the top of the press ram as you fully tighten the die, or use a spacer (like a thick flat washer or several of them) which is square, and place that on top of the ram when screwing the die in. You must use a spacer on the factory bullet seating dies, or you may get a crimp in the case mouth. You don't need a crimp. The bullet seater die must be away from the top of the ram when the ram is completely up, with clearance at least the width of a nickel, to prevent crimping. So you insert the die, screwing it down onto the spacer, and remove the spacer when the die is locked in place, then proceed with the operation as planned. Chamber bullet seaters like the Forster are screwed down on top of the press per the instructions included with the die. Use of the spacer is optional, but probably a good idea. They do not have a crimp. Obviously, if you are full-length sizing, the die can be screwed down completely onto the top of the ram, leaving the case holder in place. The case holders are square, BTW.

I never screw a die all the way down to the shell holder. On a bolt gun you only want to bump that shoulder back 1 to 2 thousands. You must use a headspace gauge on your fired brass and set your die up for that shoulder bump.

Unless you use a forsters co-ax press

[Robinhood]

I like several other posters have seen under .005 not make a huge difference. But my scores are like 195 with 7X's. I look at the cases in the top scorers( 200 with 15X's) case box and there are index marks on every case head.

[yobuck]

I never screw a die all the way down to the shell holder. On a bolt gun you only want to bump that shoulder back 1 to 2 thousands. You must use a headspace gauge on your fired brass and set your die up for that shoulder bump.

Unless you use a forsters co-ax press

Now I never knew that. Which goes to show your never too old to learn new stuff. Anybody interested in some cheap presses? lol
For average guys and hunters it's all just mind over matter. And as they say if you don't mind it don't matter at least very much.

[243LPR]

I'll throw this in for giggles. https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/deal-week-hornady-bullet-concentricity-gauge/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=20161017_BlogDigest_194&utm_campaign=/blog/deal-week-hornady-bullet-concentricity-gauge/