Die bottoming out/extractor?

[jdw91]

Hi all,

So i got a 6br barrel put on my Model 11 the other day,and when I started sizing some of the new lapua brass to see if I could bump the shoulder a few thousandths, (using a headspace gage) I noticed that the FL die (redding S bushing) would not bump the shoulder at all, even when screwed all the way down to the shellholder. Even with a case in the die the shellholder seems to be completely contacting the die. Just to be sure I gave it as much pressure as practical, with no luck.

Any ideas? The new brass will chamber but it still bothers me that the die wont bump the shoulder at all, and soon i'll need it to.

Also, when first trying my brass in the chamber I had put a 223 ejector in the bolt head, and it wouldn't close (that's why i tried sizing my new brass). I took it out and it closed with a good fit. Does anyone know where I can get a 308 extractor? The one listed on midway says "all calibers" but i'd like to be sure. Lastly, with a proper extractor will my brass still chamber or will I encounter the same problem i did with the 223 extractor (bolt doesnt close)???

Thanks for the help

Jake

[82boy]

Jake,
I find that what you are finding is a common problem with Redding dies. (One of many reasons I don't like them) I do have one concern though, you should not need to bump the shoulder back on new unfired brass. The brass should be undersized from the factory, and need fire formed.

The way I have fixed Redding dies in the past is take the die and place sand paper on a flat surface like a glass sheet. I then start out with 400 gr paper and work down to 1000 gr. I take the die careful to hold it flat against the sand paper and I then do figure 8's on the paper, until the die is the proper size. Another option (For many the most popular) is take the shell holder and sand it down. The problem is with this method you marry the shell holder to the die.

I have other concerns with what you have stated in the post. The ejector is exactly the same regardless of caliber. Now if your talking about the extractor, there is two different ones one for the 308 bolt head and the 223, but the only difference between the two is cosmetic. The 223 extractor is slightly longer to fill in the gap left in the head, but the contact surface is exactly the same. I thought at one time there was a difference, but I found out it is only cosmetic. The extractor that Midway (I am also not a bug fan of Midway for many reasons.) sells is for the 308 bolt head, but it will work find on the 223 bolt head it will just have a gap at the top, the actual 223 extractor fills the gap, but either way where the contact and are held by the ball bearing is the exact same measurement. Savage will sell the 223 extractor.

I feel from reading your post you have the head space set too tight. The bolt should just close with a piece of brass in it with out resistance. I don't understand what you mean by "close with a good fit," that just sounds like resistance to me. How did you set the barrel up did you use Gauges or brass ? To set head space with brass, the brass needs to be fired then sized, not new.

[jdw91]

I guess I wasn't very clear in my post- the barrel's headspace is fine, but when i first put the new brass in the chamber I had the 223 extractor (not ejector, sorry) in place and somehow this prevented the bolt from closing. So i thought maybe I'd just bump the shoulder on the brass to see if it would fit, and discovered that the die wouldn't size the brass. Then i took out the 223 extractor and the brass chambered with little resistance (good fit). But I'm still concerned that when i put a new 308 sized extractor in the bolt head it won't close again... and also that the die won't bump the shoulder...

Does anyone know why the 223 extractor would stop the bolt from closing? When i switch to the proper, 308 extractor will i encounter this problem again?

Thanks

Jake

[bigedp51]

The average commercial cartridge case is made .002 shorter than minimum headspace for that caliber and NO resizing die would touch the shoulder. (as stated above)

Could something be binding extractor movement like a sliver or piece of cartridge brass? Are you sliding the case under the extractor and chambering the case or are you trying to "snap" the case over the extractor on a chambered case.

Try chambering a different American made case and see what happens, Lapua brass is made to tight tolerances and can have a larger base diameter and case rim than American made cases. (Mic the cases)

[BillPa]

I guess I wasn't very clear in my post- the barrel's headspace is fine, but when i first put the new brass in the chamber I had the 223 extractor (not ejector, sorry) in place and somehow this prevented the bolt from closing. So i thought maybe I'd just bump the shoulder on the brass to see if it would fit, and discovered that the die wouldn't size the brass. Then i took out the 223 extractor and the brass chambered with little resistance (good fit). But I'm still concerned that when i put a new 308 sized extractor in the bolt head it won't close again... and also that the die won't bump the shoulder...

Does anyone know why the 223 extractor would stop the bolt from closing? When i switch to the proper, 308 extractor will i encounter this problem again?

Thanks

Jake


As 82boy mentioned, there is a difference between the extractors used for the 223-204 and all the others. They're longer from the ball detent to the outside edge. When the longer extractors engage the rim of the larger cartridge they extend out past the lug and jam in the receiver,why your's wouldn't close The length from the detent to the inside(claw) are the same all the extractors. You can simply file off the outside edge roughly .100" so it doesn't extend out past the lug with the larger .470" rim. ( .378"- .470")

As far as the head clearance of the brass is concerned there is only one way to know where your at, by measuring it. Lacking the tools the easiest and most accurate way it to use Plastigage on the shoulder. Degrease the brass, place a piece of the gage on the shoulder, lightly oil it so it doesn't stick in the chamber then chamber it. Extract the cartridge then compare the Plastigage to the graduations on the envelope. It will tell you exactly how much cartridge head clearance you have for that chamber.

Bill

[Slowpoke Slim]

I would second that you should not expect to be able to bump the shoulder back on virgin brass. If you still can't set back the shoulder once the brass has been fired 2x or 3x, then you may have an issue.

Also, as an aside, Redding does sell a body die that will bump shoulders too. I use that die when needed on my 6.5x284. I'm using the Redding neck bushing die to size that brass.

[bigedp51]

I would hate to think automotive "Plastigage" is the "most accurate way" to measure your cases.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP5130-1.jpg

As I stated the average commercial case is .002 shorter than minimum headspace.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP5254.jpg

And normally you need help from pushing the shoulder back too far during resizing.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/7-17-201054719PM.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP4385.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/7-17-201054345PM.jpg

L.E. Wilson Case Length Headspace Gage 6mm BR (Bench Rest)

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=242034

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP6321.jpg

[Nor Cal Mikie]

As far as headspace, shoulder bump issue, doesn't seem to be a problem. You say the bolt closes on the case with no problem? You won't know for sure until the case gets fired and you try to rechamber it, then you'll know if you've got a problem.
As far as extractor problems, try using oil on the spring and ball? Sounds like you're thinking you have more problems than you really have. JMHO, Mike.

[jdw91]

Thanks to all who replied,

Mike, I think your right, not many problems at all!. So I think the extractor is to long and getting forced into the receiver, not allowing the bolt to close. Headspace should be fine then- I think (hope) that once the case is fired and the shoulder moved forward, the die will bump the shoulder back without bottoming out. This all sounds right,

Thanks again for the help guys,

Jake

Oh PS does anyone know about ejecting issues for the 6BR (it doesn't eject) when using bolt head parts from a 223 (or any other bolt head parts?). Doesn't something or other need to be lengthened?

[82boy]

Look in the FAQs section.
http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/index.php/topic,15070.0.html