Savage 12 bolt hard to open at times..

[RC20]

Something is not adding up, we aren't dealing with with .003, if the .015 is accurate then the .060 (or better) I am getting as above and beyond the baffle gap is more than enough.

I do fully get the not perfect world and a good force needed.

You are forcing me to take my feeler gauges home, fine, I will measure that free closed gap, then take the handle off an measure the cam distance and see how much the extraction cam distance is. I hope everyone is happy now. :frusty::cheer2:

[Robinhood]

.035 for primary extraction

[zilla]

All I know is that after swapping handles I haven't had the problem

[SidecarFlip]

SidecarFlip: Great information, no to mention great patience to work the burr down. Phew.

I too am very interested in your results. Currently using Bore Tech Eliminator and Carbon Killer 2000, they work better than previous but don't have the tool to look down the tube so only going by what's coming out and how well they clean up.

The cheap (50 buck) Harbor Freight inspection camera will serve you well, I use one all the time. It's not a Hawkeye (Gradient Lens), but it's not 700 bucks either. One problem I encounter with BTE is a false copper reading even using a Dewey CF rod because the end of the rod is brass so I threaded an aluminum rod for the final pas of a patch puller, that eliminates any false reading. I've always used No. 9 for powder removal and the wife bought me a quart for Christmas last so that is what I use.

I had a customer give me a bottle of Sweets and I tried it one time and that was enough. It smells vile and while it does remove copper, it's had to get by the smell. BTE is odorless.

Be careful with BTE and ALWAYS use a bore guide. BTE will do bad things to trigger groups if it gets in there and is left in there. A good fitting bore guide is a necessity.

BTE sells nylon bore brushes (you have to use a nylon brush with BTE) for a price but you can buy the Tipton nylon ones a lot cheaper. Hard to find but I've found them on Amazon. I uses nothing but plastic jags and patch pullers.

If the rifle (with the burr) was an ordinary cookie cutter rifle, I would have traded it off. It isn't. S&W imported less than 1500 into this country in the 60's and the switched to a lesser quality Howa made design and the rifle is pristine and very collectable, plus it shoots very well as in MOA at 200 yards, not bad for a rifle that is 50 + years old. Chuck Hawks sure likes them....

I have some pictures of it but I have no idea how to post pictures on this forum....

[RC20]

Thank you, have to digest.

Have you tried or compared the Carbon Killer and Bore Tech to the BTE?

Orange smell with the Carbon Killer or none with them. Wife was having an issue with Hoppes smell and Hoppes was not as effective as I wanted for these guns.

I am one of those people that if there is glue tis everyone. Both the CK and BT are not attacking anything so for me that's good.

[RC20]

All I know is that after swapping handles I haven't had the problem

Mine went back and forth and lately none so a head scratcher though again cleaning the bore consistently.

Let us know if it comes back.

[RC20]

.035 for primary extraction

thank you, I thought I might get a response before I did something drastic!

That's a pretty good movement. What an odd phenomena and erratic as well.

[Texas10]

Are you using a chamber guide when cleaning? My thought was perhaps some cleaning chemicals are remaining in the chamber and are causing the random stickiness.

+1 on the camera BTW. I have a Snap-0n digital borescope camera. Only about a hundred bucks on Ebay, used. WELL worth the money to be able to look into the chamber and throat. Also look into muzzle end and see copper build up quite clearly, or to verify your chemicals are removing the copper.

There are other fairly cheap 5mm endoscope cameras that will plug into your laptop with a usb port. I think I paid $18.00 for one that will fit down the bore of my 223. Got it on Ebay. Came with 15 ft of waterproof cable. Great for locating Crappie and catfish too.

[hardnosestreetcop]

Zilla a couple of things that ive learned is to after resizing the brass is to always check it by using a headspace gauge. Also don't use mixed brands of brass

[zilla]

I am using all Winchester brass.. Full length resize. Trim as needed. Not sure about the head space gauge, but I do have a Lyman cartridge checker that I use. I am anal about getting all the solvents out of the chamber.. Wipe Out is terribly sticky if not totally removed.. I just finished a very thorough cleaning and am ready to try again. Love to have a bore
scope but **** they are expensive.. If I do buy one it won't be the cheap one. I am looking at a hawk eye on clearance at Brownells now..

[Robinhood]

Has anyone suggested primary extraction.,,,

[zilla]

Has anyone suggested primary extraction.,,, More than a few times.. Pretty sure that is the problem..

[Robinhood]

More than a few times.. Pretty sure that is the problem..

:baby: well your cases might be getting stuck.

[RC20]

I don't seem to be getting through.

You go outside, spend the whole day in the baking sun, get sun burned.

Was the problem the sun?:confused: (primary extraction )

Of should you be looking at putting cloths on, sun screen or stay out of the sun?

In this case I think the question is "Why Is Primary Extraction Not Occurring?"

At the listed .035 (thank you Robbinhood) I don't see it as lack of cam action, stacked tolerances.

I could be wrong of course.

[zilla]

Thank you for the number. But the problem hasn't returned since changing bolt handles. When It does I'll check. No sun here the last few days, been rather crappy, windy and rainy.. Did manage to exterminate several P-dawgs and a Jack wabbit though with no issues.

[Robinhood]

In this case I think the question is "Why Is Primary Extraction Not Occurring?"

At the listed .035 (thank you Robbinhood) I don't see it as lack of cam action, stacked tolerances.

I could be wrong of course.

I think what would help RC20 is if you could explain Primary extraction and how it takes place. If there was an understanding of your perception then there is an opportunity to confirm or deny the concept and build from there.

[RC20]

In the case of the Savage (vs the Axis) you have the ramp on the bolt handle interacting with the ramp on the baffle.

I call it cam action, Primary extraction is fine as opposed to just pulling the bolt back (assume they call that secondary)

I measured the ramp, its .160 (pretty close, not exact.)

Excess floating space between the babble and the receiver/bolt handle surface when the bolt is closed is .050 (very rough)

That would seem to give us .100 roughly of primary extraction

The point being, if there is adequate extraction distance, then what cause it not to work?

Is the cam distance and force from the ramp not enough?

The bolt rotates all the way, its does not pull the cartridge back that first small distance.


Yes I can see a possible lack of cam distance if its wrong, I don't see it going on for long, but there are other factors than can cause a case to stick that is not overcome with the cam.


Its those other forces that I suspect are the primary cause, not the lack of ramp/cam action.

Putting a feeler gauges between he baffle and the receiver may give you enough more pull force that it overcomes the stuck case, you can also put a cheater bar on a pipe wrench and get more torque out of it.

You also exceed the limits of the wrench. More better to get a bigger wrench (or if possible, find out why your 4 ft pipe wrench can't undo a joint that it should be able to do)

The likely stretch is the case rim.

i.e. when you put it back together use pipe dope and not permatex.

Maybe there is an inherent design flaw in the ramp is not long enough, I tend to other causes.

[earl39]

RC what you are missing is he (Zilla) swapped bolt handles and hasn't had a problem since. That would point directly to primary extraction. Just the little bit of difference between the two ramps on the bolt handles was enough to make the difference. Everything in spec but stacked tolerances were corrected by swapping two parts.

[Robinhood]

Putting a feeler gauges between he baffle and the receiver may give you enough more pull force that it overcomes the stuck case, you can also put a cheater bar on a pipe wrench and get more torque out of it.


RC you do realize that the shims purpose it to move the baffle rearward not pry with????

Try this experiment; take the firing pin out of the bolt along with all of the cocking pins and sleeves. Put the handle back on the bolt with out the rear baffle. Insert the bolt and close it. Now set up an indicator test or linear travel, to measure the bolt movement. Put the point somewhere that the rotation of the bolt does not effect the reading. Now rotate the bolt to the cocked position without pulling back and write down the reading. It should be .0000. Now go back and put the rear baffle on. Insert and rotate the bolt 90* to the cocked position with out pulling back. wright down that number. post here.

[RC20]

Earl39:

No I did get it. I am not saying it did not work (though we need to have him do more shooting )

I have had it intermittent and I would try something and it "seemed" corrected it, then came back.

I am not one of those the sun came up in the East and we had an earthquake in CA, ergo the Sun coming up cause the Earthquake .
People took to shucking virgins into Volcanoes on the same basis.

What I am saying is that even if it had a few thousandths more and did indeed corrected it, with a lot of cam movement, why is this occurring in the first place.?

We are not talking small .001 here. Stacking Tolerances is another term that gets bantied about. Yes tolerance can stack, but is it enough for it to be an issue?

So what is the root cause? Bad design, marginal at best or other as suggested?

The more I have shot mine (and also cleaning chambers) the less it has occurred.

Two things are changing as well as the reloads, age of brass.

The first time I thought I had too little powder in a case and getting over pressure. That was wrong but it had the same identical symptoms.

Sticky Case would be a better term I think.

Primary Extraction is a name for a process, its not necessarily the problem.

My latest test was to see how much movement the rim has in the situation. Not a lot, the extractor hold the case head tight to the bolt head.

There is a bit of movement with the wavy washer between the bolt body and the first part of the bolt head. (have to look that up, breakdown does not cover it) . I haven't; measure it yet but in the under .010 I would guess.