Savage 12 bolt hard to open at times..

[olddav]

The rear baffle has a cam at the bottom left hand corner, it acts in concert with the bolt handle to pull the expired case from the chamber. Converting rotational motion to lateral motion pulling the case rearward (freeing the case so the operator can pull the bolt back ejecting the spent round).

If the clearance between the bolt and baffle are too great the cam will not produce the needed rearward motion. You can shim the baffle (between the baffle and action) once you know how much is required (that's where the feeler gauges come into play).

Hopefully this makes some sense

[BillPa]

Update. took the rifle to the range to check my zero. Also took my son and his Savage 12 in 223 Rem. Decided to swap bolts to see what happened. His bolt works flawlessly in my Rifle. Mine in his is having the same issue.. Me thinks something about the bolt is FUBAR. Probly the primary extraction business. Not sure what to do about it..

Switch the bolt handles bolt to bolt then try both their actions.

Bill

[zilla]

OK, will do.. Makes sense..

[RC20]

I may get flamed as well, but I have a different take on this.

I have two Savage rifles (3 now but have shot just the two, third this weekend). One is a long action, the other shot.

One is a year old, one is at least 6 years old, as much as 10 or so (used, shot little) .

Both exhibited the problem after some rounds down the tube.

I understand the primary extraction aspect, but to work fine then not with little wear is??????

I am now cleaning my chambers very specifically and carefully.

Since I did I have had little of it occur.

I do think that the bore guide keeps you from doing that so I go around it and do a chamber clean.

I do need to get the gauges with me and see what happens when if I occurs, but its turned into such a seldom problem and I have to find my gauges or bring them in from work. .

I think there is more to this than just a dirty chamber, but still puzzling over what the relationships are and causes, it may be marginal extraction pushed over the edge, but I don't think Primary extraction specifically is the issue. I am also looking at re-size new vs older brass etc.

I suspect Savage has pretty tight chambers contributing to this. Some and some (if true) , tighter chamber is a more accurate one as well.

Could be wrong, been there, done that, have boxes of T shirts. My spidey senses say there is more to this than sometimes is offered up as a flat covers all response and maybe more accurately, primary extraction issue is a symptom not a cause.

[zilla]

I just got back from the range.. Changed bolt handles. No problems with either rifle.. Gotta go back out tomorrow when the wind dies down and finish zero-ing.. We'll see how it goes.. I am waiting for the problem to occur again so I can look at the rear of the bolt now that I think I know what to look for..

[Robinhood]

Zilla, Take a feeler gauge set with you to the range. If the bolt sticks, start with a .010" between the rear baffle and the face of the action to see if the bolt will open fully and extract the case. Go up in .005" increments until it opens.

In this video the guy places the feeler gauge in the wrong location but it is an example of how to do it. the feeler gauge should go on the other side of the baffle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-1ddHYW6wA

[nuttybarrels]

you can also surface your shellholder measure the thickness with caliper or mic use a flat surface granite plate or glass, psa sandpaper 320 grit hold shellholder flat and start sanding. go slow because you can take .015 off quick but then you can adjust die to spec. That's how I do it to go deeper for bumping shoulders and you can shim under the case in the shellholder on ram if you only need a smidge

[nuttybarrels]

Always keep your chamber clean and spotless if possible and keep your cases clean so they will grip the chamber walls after primer ignition. greae your cam at the back of the bolt also this helps with lift also and your lugs

[BillPa]

I just got back from the range.. Changed bolt handles. No problems with either rifle..
I kinda figured it would or at least for the time being. As the parts wear in it may or may not happen again but we'll cross that bridge when or if we come to it.

Bill

[RC20]

That's my problem with purely primary extraction as the base issue. It comes and goes.

Other factors at play that look to be the base issue, seems to wide spread to be as simple as the cam.

Comment read at one times says current Savage but the used I got was at least 6 years old and SN range looks to be even older and it did it.

[Robinhood]

Primary extraction is there because cases don't always release from the chamber. If in the event you stick a case and you do not have primary extraction you put a rod in the bore and hammer it out. All things considered primary extraction trumps rod and hammer.

[RC20]

We seem to be talking at ends here.

Yes there is the extraction cam system, aka Primary extraction. there is no disagreement about that or what it does.

The $64 question is what causes the random sticky extraction issues?

Obviously the idea behind the gauge is to give it more length to the extraction, may even work

Is that the answer or is there a separate sticky case issue involved.

I can see a run of it, but same issue across two guns no fewer than 10 and more like 15 years apart as well as recurrent with others?

I don't think its the cam or its action, I think there is another aspect (or more than one) to it that stops the extraction from occurring.

If another aspect gets involved and the amount of force it has is not enough, you can make your lever longer, that does not explain the problem it may overcome it.

[zilla]

I just wanna shoot gophers...

In the mean time I am waiting for it to occur once again. This time I have a good idea what to look for..

[earl39]

To explain why it happens and why this one does and that one doesn't. It is all to do with stacked tolerances. When all the stacking is headed towards a problem then just a little more (sticky brass) problem and bang you can't get the brass out. If it is stacked the other way it pretty much means short of blowing the gun up it will extract all the time. Most fall somewhere in between. Bolt body has a tolerance, bolt handle has one, rear baffle has one and action has a tolerance, and don't forget the bolt and cross pin. Put all that together in the negative and you have an issue and you may not have to have all bad just some at the max or maybe something got past the checks. You are dealing in thousandths of an inch here. Not something you can just look at and say that looks to small.

[SidecarFlip]

I may get flamed as well, but I have a different take on this.

I have two Savage rifles (3 now but have shot just the two, third this weekend). One is a long action, the other shot.

One is a year old, one is at least 6 years old, as much as 10 or so (used, shot little) .

Both exhibited the problem after some rounds down the tube.

I understand the primary extraction aspect, but to work fine then not with little wear is??????

I am now cleaning my chambers very specifically and carefully.

Since I did I have had little of it occur.

I do think that the bore guide keeps you from doing that so I go around it and do a chamber clean.

I do need to get the gauges with me and see what happens when if I occurs, but its turned into such a seldom problem and I have to find my gauges or bring them in from work. .

I think there is more to this than just a dirty chamber, but still puzzling over what the relationships are and causes, it may be marginal extraction pushed over the edge, but I don't think Primary extraction specifically is the issue. I am also looking at re-size new vs older brass etc.

I suspect Savage has pretty tight chambers contributing to this. Some and some (if true) , tighter chamber is a more accurate one as well.

Could be wrong, been there, done that, have boxes of T shirts. My spidey senses say there is more to this than sometimes is offered up as a flat covers all response and maybe more accurately, primary extraction issue is a symptom not a cause.

I suspect Savage like every other manufacturer runs their chamber reamers to the end before discarding them.

[RC20]

Rough Chamber: Certainly a possibility. I don't see brass marks so am tentatively discounting it for my guns, hope to get a cheap scope and get a good look.
That does not mean its not a factor in others. I continue to think this has several aspects to it, not all of which apply to any given problem.

As for the following, while that can be a factor in precision fit, the cam action does not fall into that category IMNSHO

I don't have my gauges, but the at full closed bolt between the baffle and either side (frame or bolt) is around .050 to .060. The cam action itself is at least another .060 and maybe as much as .070.

That clearly is not thousandths, and it would not be a marginal issue for cam operation. You want plenty (though you don't want to rip the head off the case)

I have seen the stacked tolerance issue in the mfg process of cylinder sleeves and pistons, in that case the mfg elected to match up the looser sleeves with the large pistons and the spec pistons with the spec sleeves. One way to do it but certainly confused a very experienced mechanic as well as myself as a new to diesels mechanic (he did figure it out, we did have to dismantle what we had done to that point).

This by comparisons is not a fine tolerance aspect. Bolt fit yes, all the rest with the locking lugs engagement yes, but extraction is a pretty robust and rough business.


To explain why it happens and why this one does and that one doesn't. It is all to do with stacked tolerances. When all the stacking is headed towards a problem then just a little more (sticky brass) problem and bang you can't get the brass out. If it is stacked the other way it pretty much means short of blowing the gun up it will extract all the time. Most fall somewhere in between. Bolt body has a tolerance, bolt handle has one, rear baffle has one and action has a tolerance, and don't forget the bolt and cross pin. Put all that together in the negative and you have an issue and you may not have to have all bad just some at the max or maybe something got past the checks. You are dealing in thousandths of an inch here. Not something you can just look at and say that looks to small.

[SidecarFlip]

Rough Chamber: Certainly a possibility. I don't see brass marks so am tentatively discounting it for my guns, hope to get a cheap scope and get a good look.
That does not mean its not a factor in others. I continue to think this has several aspects to it, not all of which apply to any given problem.

As for the following, while that can be a factor in precision fit, the cam action does not fall into that category IMNSHO

I don't have my gauges, but the at full closed bolt between the baffle and either side (frame or bolt) is around .050 to .060. The cam action itself is at least another .060 and maybe as much as .070.

That clearly is not thousandths, and it would not be a marginal issue for cam operation. You want plenty (though you don't want to rip the head off the case)

I have seen the stacked tolerance issue in the mfg process of cylinder sleeves and pistons, in that case the mfg elected to match up the looser sleeves with the large pistons and the spec pistons with the spec sleeves. One way to do it but certainly confused a very experienced mechanic as well as myself as a new to diesels mechanic (he did figure it out, we did have to dismantle what we had done to that point).

This by comparisons is not a fine tolerance aspect. Bolt fit yes, all the rest with the locking lugs engagement yes, but extraction is a pretty robust and rough business.

That is always a distinct possibility on any production firearm. Only one way to ascertain that however and that is with a borescope.

I had an interesting experience with a vintage Smith and Wesson imported Husquvarna small action Mauser I bought in unfired condition at an estate sale a while back, it would chamber a SAMMI resized round but would extract hard, not every time, just once in a while and that wasn't even firing it, just loading one in battery. Interestingly. there was never a mark on any case that hung...

I was puzzled so I took a 'look see' inside the chamber, paying close attention to the walls and especially the shoulder datum area. What I saw was a tooling mark where many years ago, the gunsmith who reamed the barrel either stopped the lathe before extracting the reamer or turned the coolant off prematurely and it left a burr in the datum area. It took some time to find and was even harder to remove because I wasn't able to use one of my existing reamers to 'touch up' the imperfection. I had to work the burr out with lapping compound and hardwood dowel rods turned to the approximate shoulder taper. Took some time but I got rid of the burr and the extraction issue.

I own a Gradient Lens Hawkeye as well as a cheap HF digital inspection camera and I actually like the HF camera better. It won't fit everywhere the Gradient will but I don't have to worry about buggering up a 700 buck scope either.

I read the review on here about the Lyman unit and while it's a nice utility scope, it's still 4 times as much as the HF scope is.

Not withstanding. my most frequent use of a cheapo scope is visually checking my cleaning regimen, especially breaking in a new tube, where building copper and timely removal of it is imperative. I've explored the mysteries of various 'elixr's' for copper removal and their claims and actual real time performance and how they impact shot placement, especially that first 'flyer'.

[Robinhood]

I've explored the mysteries of various 'elixr's' for copper removal and their claims and actual real time performance and how they impact shot placement, especially that first 'flyer'.

....and...

[RC20]

SidecarFlip: Great information, no to mention great patience to work the burr down. Phew.

I too am very interested in your results. Currently using Bore Tech Eliminator and Carbon Killer 2000, they work better than previous but don't have the tool to look down the tube so only going by what's coming out and how well they clean up.

[earl39]

As for the following, while that can be a factor in precision fit, the cam action does not fall into that category IMNSHO

I don't have my gauges, but the at full closed bolt between the baffle and either side (frame or bolt) is around .050 to .060. The cam action itself is at least another .060 and maybe as much as .070.

That clearly is not thousandths, and it would not be a marginal issue for cam operation. You want plenty (though you don't want to rip the head off the case)

I have seen the stacked tolerance issue in the mfg process of cylinder sleeves and pistons, in that case the mfg elected to match up the looser sleeves with the large pistons and the spec pistons with the spec sleeves. One way to do it but certainly confused a very experienced mechanic as well as myself as a new to diesels mechanic (he did figure it out, we did have to dismantle what we had done to that point).

This by comparisons is not a fine tolerance aspect. Bolt fit yes, all the rest with the locking lugs engagement yes, but extraction is a pretty robust and rough business.
Your right but when you only need 10-15 thousandths to have enough primary extraction then stacking 3 or 4 thousandths on each part adds up.
Using your own example if your sleeve is .003 to large and the cylinder is bored .003 small you are now .006 out of spec. Just simple math.
In a perfect world the brass would spring back and never stick to the chamber walls but the world ain't perfect so one needs enough primary extraction to overcome sticky brass and/or a dirty chamber. Keeping the chamber clean will help but unless you are cleaning the chamber after every shot you only have one shot with a clean chamber.