Help with barrel selection

[mjphawk]

After much searching of the inter-webs for information, I have decided to create a post of my own to help make a new barrel decision. I found a lot of information that was “close” but few that seemed to relate to my application (budget long-range on a Savage action).

I have a Savage 110 FCP HS Precision in 308 WIN with a Vortex PST 6-24x50. I handload and have worked up loads that the gun seems to like and produce SD’s generally in the single digits. I’m looking to upgrade my barrel in hopes of getting a little more consistency out of my groupings which are currently running right around 1 MOA or slightly over with occasional "fliers" (I shoot only 5-shot groups and record every shot no matter what. I'm not going to deny that some of the inconsistency may be me but I do think I am a reasonably good shot. I shoot mostly at 100 yards and enjoy shooting tight groups, but the primary purpose for this gun is to shoot at 1,000 yards which I do when I can get to a range that lets me get out that far with a reasonable amount of success (I know a 308 WIN is not the best 1,000 yard gun).

Eventually I will be buying a custom rig in 6mm or 6.5mm from a top name like GA Precision, etc. so am just looking for a drop in 308 WIN barrel at this time to buy more time to save up.

First question is if people think that a new barrel will serve me well?

If so, I was hoping to get some input from the folks here. Few considerations:



Brand: I have been looking at Criterion, Shilen, X-Calibur, Benchmark, Krieger, and Bartlein. I don’t mind spending money on a good setup but am not sure I will see the benefit of the Krieger or Bartlein off of a factory action (not 100% sure I can even get a drop in from either of these manufacturers). No doubt all make great barrels but I’m gun-shy of Criterion from some reviews I have read and haven’t found much on X-Calibur or Shilen for the long range game.
Length: I current have a 24” barrel and I can push 175 SMKs up to just under 2,750 fps which just gets me to 1,000 yards super-sonic where I shoot. I also use a suppressor which adds another 9” to the overall length. I like the 24” size but am unsure if I am likely to be able to get the same velocities out of a match barrel. If I’m at risk of falling to trans-sonic at the 24” length then I would likely move up to 26”.
Twist: I currently have a 1:10. After reading Applied Ballistics Modern Advancements in Long-Range shooting I considered moving to something a little slower since I use “average” quality bullets (175gr SMK / 178gr A-Max) to keep my groupings tight; however, I don’t think it will properly stabilize a 185gr Berger Hybrid Match to the required 1.5 factor if I ever decided to use premium bullets. A 1:11 would just get me to 1.5 provided I could push them at least 2,700 fps (might need a 26" barrel?)
Contour: The gun is shot almost exclusively off a bench or bipod so weight isn’t a big issue (gun 9lbs, suppressor 24oz, scope 24 oz). Was thinking about stepping up to a slightly heavier contour to add rigidity. Currently the muzzle diameter is 0.840” at 24”. It does not appear that Shilen or Criterion offer anything between my contour and a bull barrel in a drop-in so going heavier might not be an option if I went with those manufacturers.
Material: If there is no difference in performance then I would choose to stay with blued chrome-molly. Many things I read say the level of precision is consistent but break-in and cleaning may be a bit more difficult for a chrome molly versus a stainless steel barrel


Would love to hear any input or criticisms on anything I have written above (specifically on brand). I am not married to any particular idea so all input is welcomed.

[Robinhood]

The most accurate barrel I have is Chrome-molly.
Bartlein is currently the top seller in custom barrels.
I like the twelve twist so much I could never go back to a ten. 11 or 11.25 might be the ticket for the berger 185's.
Shilen Standard or Heavy Varmint seams to f it your bill. It is not in what they call savage drop in but in the custom barrel area you will f ind it.
You can do it with a 24. Are you at sea level?

[m12lrs]

Bugholes has Kraiger and Bartlein

Northland shooters supply has the rest

SSS used to carry brux but it seems the quit. Brux is another high quality cut rifle barrel

[mjphawk]

The most accurate barrel I have is Chrome-molly.
Bartlein is currently the top seller in custom barrels.
I like the twelve twist so much I could never go back to a ten. 11 or 11.25 might be the ticket for the berger 185's.
Shilen Standard or Heavy Varmint seams to f it your bill. It is not in what they call savage drop in but in the custom barrel area you will f ind it.
You can do it with a 24. Are you at sea level?

Thanks for the input. Which manufacturers do you have experience with / like?

What projectiles are you using in your 1:12 that you like the performance so much. To date I haven't used any of the Berger Hybrid 185's but had thought it wise to keep my options open. If I can get the same accuracy with a 175gr and 1:12 twist then maybe that's another option I should consider.

Those contours do appear to be about what I am looking for. Several other manufacturers have a M24/M40 contour which seems about between those two you mentioned.

I live in Florida and all of my shooting is at sea level (so far). If I could expect similar velocities out of a 24", I guess it may prove to be rigid / accurate ? (especially with a big suppressor hanging off the end).

Anyone have any input on X-Caliber barrels? Shilen my best bet short of a Krieger / Bartlein? Are they worth the extra money / wait on a factory action?

[RC20]

Ahh, welcome to the Dilemma!

Mfg wise the ones that I went with was Shilen. I do have an X-Caliber 308 as a fill in barrel (spare for the other 308 but shooting off the 111 though that changes this week). I won't say Shilen is the best, but they seem to make what I wanted at an affordable price and the quality control is consistent.

One guy had a problem with a Criterion , they offered to take it right back. There is a lot to be said for customer service. I think all or most of them throw a bad barrel once in a while. Shilen you can get a super match (or some such) tighter test tolerance. I liked their overall take and quality checks.

My brother and I had that discussion on twist, as near as we could tell, 150 and up does well with 1-10. It will be interesting to see what Robinhood went with bullet wise

For the Shilen I went with 1-10. I shoot 168s mostly (308 and 30-06). X-Caliber 308 came in that twist and was availed and thought it was an interesting one to go with as good reports. It keeps me in the same common bullet territory (my brother shoots some 125s and does well with them in his 1-10 twists). Faster is supposedly better, also depends on shooter of course.

I would go with a Bull. Its not for rigidity, its for ability to no distort as they heat up. You sound like a Heavy Varmint and there really is not a lot in between though some have quite a selection of profiles that likely fill in there.

For bench shooters heavier is more stable (though I think the HV is probably so close to the bull as not to make any difference). I went with bulls anyway.

I went with Stainless, my brother is going with Chrome Moly. Stainless gives you better life, easier maint, some mfgs charge extras for the Blue on the Chrome molly though my brohte4 had done fine keeping them in the white with some oil on it.

IS the 110 a long action? Should be by the numbers but.......

The reason I am asking is you could go with 30-06 and then there is no 1000 yd limit or marginal. You have to be a national match grade shooter to see the difference between 308 and 30-06 accuracy wise. Pretty tiny and only significant with super good shooters.

You have a lot of case capacity and can ramp it up to close to 3000 (a bit more with R17).

I like 26 inch and went with that in both. 28 would probably be ok, anything else is getting too long and suspect benefit.

Personally I don't think I can shoot to the benefit of a Bartlein. You get into both the rifling type (cut vs button) as well as the wait time. Even the Shilen button has taken 3 months.

My take was I was not going to wait that long and I didn't think it would make any difference (at least now) for how accurate I was.

Also keep in mind that 1000 yd shots are more wind dope than barrel accuracy.

You can get a Bartlein down the road but if you are going to upgrade to a real serious target rifle, Shilen, X-Caliber, Criterion should do you fine for your current squeeze.

[stomp442]

The barrel and set up you currently have should be capable of at least half moa I would think. I have never had any trouble getting a factory savage rifle to shoot half MOA groups with tuned hand loads. I would save the $300 plus dollars on the barrel and spend it on bedding and reloading components to practice with. I would make sure the stock is completely free floated around the barrel and tang area and bed the action to the stock. I would then spend some money on getting good reloading equipment and gauges and focus on my loads. Start measuring seating depth with a comparator on the ogive of the bullet and adjust seating depths to find the sweet spots. Like was mentioned above, long range shooting is all about reading the wind, an accurate rifle definitely helps but its wind dope that will make a hit or miss. This is just my opinion but I would stick with what I got and save the money for the custom rig down the road.

[yobuck]

Take yourself a ride to Naples and visit Southern Precision Rifles, Bugholes.com and ask their opinion.

[mjphawk]

I think I have narrowed things down a little:

Length: 26" to give me the extra flexibility in high end velocity
Twist: Leaning toward 1:11.25 or 1:11. This seems like it will stabilize everything up through 175gr which is what I currently shoot. Stability seems like it may be marginal for the 185gr Target Hybrids. Does anyone have direct experience with these out to 1,000 yards in a slow twist barrel?
Contour: Thinking a M24/M40 or Heavy Palma. Any thoughts on actual performance differences or is it really all about weight / looks?
Manufacturer: I was all but set on Shilen Select Match until I was told that the Savage pre-fits only come in four contours. I would basically have to either select a bull barrel or go back with what I have. Currently leaning toward X-Caliber but not hard set on that yet. Dustin was been great on the phone when I called and they seem to allow maximum flexibility in selecting exactly what you want.


Stomp, I will go back and check the items you suggest. I know the barrel is floated but may need to give the tang a little more clearance. I likely will be giving the gun a good bedding job. I have the HS Precision stock with aluminum bedding blocks so haven't bedded yet but think I likely will do that when I replace the barrel. If I pick up accuracy I won't know which one did the trick but I would rather not bed the rifle and then have to carve it back out to make room for an over-sized recoil lug down the road.

RC20: Thanks a ton for your input. My gun is short action so moving to 30-06 isn't an option. Plus I like having a 308 Win in the safe. Feel like it's kind of obligatory like having a Ruger 10/22 and a 38 revolver.

Yobuck: I didn't realized Southern Precision was so close. I might have to take a ride over there one of these days.

[RC20]

mjphawk:

You are welcome.

I am a bit puzzles by the issue with the contour. Yours is currently .840 at 24 inches, so I expect that is the Savage Heavy Varmint at 26 inches (or very close)

Nothing wrong with X-Caliber, but the Shilen Varmint by Shillen would be a very close match. It might be a tad heavier than yours.

The Bull is only .2 inches more and if heavier is ok, then why not the bull?

Seems I am missing something but not sure what.

If you are going to play with the 185s then you are best served (or best most likely) by going with the 1-11.

[mjphawk]

RC20, I believe what I have is equivalent to what Shilen calls the Savage Varmint (1.060, 0.80, 26") or what Bartlein calls a standard Target (1.200, 2.750, 0.820, 26"). I think what Criterion calls their Varmint (1.057, 1.600, 0.815, 26") is an exact match and they have a chart that says that cut down to 24" that barrel has a muzzle diameter of 0.840.

Shilen's Standard Varmint (1.220, 3, 0.890, 26") or HV Heavy Varmint (1.220, 3, 0.940, 26") is pretty close to what I would probably be looking at if they would do it but I was told my Northland Shooters that Shilen won't do anything other than the Savage contours for the Savage drop-ins.

The M24/M40 (1.200, 3, 0.900, 26") or the Heavy Palma (1.220, 2.5, 1, 2.5, 0.900, 26") seemed to be right around where I was thinking but isn't available by Shilen so I would need to go X-Caliber, Bartlein, or Kreiger. I may need to call (or visit) Southern Shooters to see if they could do a Bartlein or Kreiger in a Savage drop-in in those contours.

If I want a Shilen Select Match grade barrel I think I would be stuck with either what I currently have or a bull barrel. I've never loved the "look" of a bull barrel but ultimately function will need to come first.

Sounds like for barrel twist the 1:11 might be the way to go.

Really appreciate your input.

[RC20]

Man I am having a hard time getting all the numbers wrapped around my brain.

I will try to sort through, but Shilen does have the equivalent to the Savage Varmint which seems to be at least close to what you have and or want?

My take was it would be find but I like the bit of extra weight of the Bull and as its bench rest, no downside.

Off Shilen site for Savage Drop in.

I don't think it makes any differend for what I do, probably only if you got into hot and heavy competation shooting and maybve not even then.




Contour #

A

B

C



S3, Savage Sporter*

1.060

.585

22



S4, Savage Heavy Sporter

1.060

.685

26



S7, Savage Varmint

1.060

.800

26



S8, Savage Bull Barrel

1.060

1.00

26





Is it the larger Receiver barrel end you want?

It will be larger than receiver and take more stock work to get to fit.

[mjphawk]

RC20,

I am sure it's me who is creating the confusion and you are missing nothing.

You are absolutely correct that the Savage Varmint is exactly what I have now and that the bull barrel is the next size up that Shilen offers. I was hoping to find something in between the Savage Varmint and the Savage Bull Barrel but don't have much of a basis for this preference other than looks.

I'll have to check my stock to confirm it will accommodate the bull barrel.

I still need to call Southern Shooters. Thanks for the input.

[Steelhead]

I have a Shilen barrel with the varmint profile.
I really like it.
Takes the heat yet is not a total pig.

[RC20]

Good, I hate it when I miss things (more often these days!)

I don't have any take on Shilen yet, barrel just went on and plan to shoot it Saturday. The interiors is more finely polished than the X-caliber was. I don't know that makes any difference.

X-caliber does not clean up easily, ok with the Carbon Cutter 2000 now (love that stuff, non toxic and much better)O , impossible with Hoppes/Kroil mix (Savage was better but not great. All are button rifle types.

No smack down, but that's a pretty fine line to try to get through profile wise. I would think the Savage Varmint would work fine. Next barrel is going to be that.

I have to admit that the guy who like my one rifle setup was the Savage Varmint OEM, so there may be something to be said for looks!

I am after small holes first and looks second though I did wind up with a pretty handsome combo with the BTH Laminated (nice color), stainless barrel and the blued receiver. I like it a lot.
Or as I told my brother when he did a MAK90 stock for me, if I knew what I wanted that would have been it!

Someday maybe a button rifled just to see. Next one is Walter Luthar as they have the reamer for the 7.5 x 55 Swiss I want.

[19E60]

mjp, have you considered pac-nor? Judging by their website you can order just about anything you want including a custom contour to your specs.

[RC20]

Heavy barrel does not get you less whip, its just better to shoot hotter and longer as far less distortion (hopefully none)

I got the Shilen 30-06 bull out today (expect tomorrow and will go again, dropped my wife off and just wanted to get it on paper and the barrel break in done, not expecting anything that good ( 1 inch at 100 is nice)

It was shooting some good stuff relatively as I was not that focused, cleaning every round, two rounds and then 5, but it was, hmm 4 shots out of 5 looking 5/8, that's pretty impressive.

Last two groups were 1/2 at 105 roughly and good pattern. Definitely impressed as load levels not optimized and only the second COAL change.

At this point I am impressed with Shilen and the XC Bull is ok but not impressive (and its on the same chassis as I put the 30-06 bull on it yesterday_)

At this point the Shilen is winning hands down as the best. Maybe per true bench rest (Bartlein!) but looks very good for what I do.

[foxx]

Well, there's a lot of good info here, and RC has offered much, but I have to disagree about barrel "whip". There is no doubt in my mind that a heavy barrel is stiffer than a sporter barrel of the same length. Likewise, 2 barrels of same contour, the shorter one is also stiffer. Won't try to defend this statement with proof or evidence, but I also think a stiffer barrel is more likely to have a longer or softer or more forgiving "node" or area/range of accuracy for load development. (Easier to find your "sweet spot(s)"

Stiff or "less whip" does not necessarily mean more accuracy, however. I believe a skinny barreled sporter of 30 inches can be just as accurate as a 16 inch bull barrel, assuming you take the time and effort to develop the right hand loads for each. It is certainly true the skinny barrel will heat up faster, and therefore subsequent shots can go eratic sooner than with a bull barrel..

[RC20]

Tough subject, I too don't have any of the proofs or evidence, a lot of talk of whip but actually measurements are rare (came across it someplace and maybe I can dig up)

So the following links pretty well say what you did, heavier is stiffer. Shorter is stiffer as well. Once contention was that something like 22 inch barrel was ideal. That was 100 yd shooting for the most part but a lot of interesting details came out of it (warehouse in Houston).

http://gunsmagazine.com/good-vibrations/


https://www.shootingsoftware.com/barrel.htm

http://www.stocks-rifle.com/harmonics.htm

My head hurt when done.

It is incredible with all the variations and monkey motion, we can hit and 8"x8" target at 100, let alone get into the half MOA and less, pretty amazing stuff.

If you knew nothing about shooting, and went through all the variables and were then told people can shoot 2/10 inch groups at 100 yds you would say they were nuts.

[swadiver]

Criterion. I have two, .308 1 in 10 twist barreled rifles. pics worth a thousand words. all 5 shots @ 100yds. i got a bunch more pics like thishttp://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b629/swadiver1/DSC06576_zpszvly5a9h.jpg

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b629/swadiver1/DSC06571_zpslhhyzz8p.jpg

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b629/swadiver1/DSC06535_zpsrkqfjxgt.jpg
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b629/swadiver1/DSC06481_zpsdiwilbzh.jpg

[RC20]

It sure does not get any better than that.