12fv 223 owners start me with a good load...

[hardnosestreetcop]

Knowing that every rifle is different with that said, with the Sierra 55 Gr SBT from my Model 12 I ve had outstanding results from the Hodgdon web site OAL @ 2.200. BL-c (2), H335, IMR-3031,4895 & Varget.
With the 1-9 twist rate I have found the 50 & 52 Grainers also produced outstanding results for me. Looking forward to testing the 69 Gr HPBT Match Kings as well as the 75 GR HPBT's

[copterdrvr]

BACK to the question at hand:

24.4 grains of H4895 in Winchester/Lake City/Lapua brass using CCI benchrest primers capped with a Sierra 55 grain Blitzking. This load has MOA/SUBMOA in 5 different AR's and Two bolt action Savages. Similar results with 24.7 grains of Varget in same setup. These loads work in MY GUNS and in reality are very mild loads. To clarify, the Lake City brass is sorted in the sense that it is all 2012 manufacture. On calm mornings I've shot 300 yard groups in the 1.2 inch range with this load in my 12 FLV.

Another load that works great is 24.8 grains of H4895 with a 69 grain Matchking. This group was shot at 300 yards. I use CCI benchrest primers for all of my "accuracy loads". Similar results with 25 grains of Varget.

Forgot to mention rifle used for this group was my Savage 12FLV in a Choate Tactical stock. Mods are extended bolt handle, lift kit (forgot about that!) and Rifle Basix trigger.

http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx186/copterdrvr/IMG_1513_zpsk7isp8q0.jpg (http://s754.photobucket.com/user/copterdrvr/media/IMG_1513_zpsk7isp8q0.jpg.html)

[Texas10]

Sealant could be for a few reasons. Uniform start & water sealant is most likely.
Federal cases are VERY soft, sometimes dangerously so in the head. At any rate the soft case will obturate quicker and seal to the chamber. This is good for accuracy, not so much for case longevity to the reloader.


I've reloaded the brass saved from the Federal America Eagle loads over a dozen times with no loose pockets, or split necks. But then, I only neck size. I have annealed after a dozen or so loads on some and found them a tad more accurate. Most of these were loaded to max + at one time or another while working up a load, still no looseness or obvious head expansion.

The only reason I toss them is the A.E. made last year were many times too short (1.738) and had flash holes that were consistently off center, sometimes by half a hole! This years brass, identified by two "dots" on either side of the "FC" head stamp, is much more consistent in length averaging 1.742 and the flash holes are well centered.

I am harvesting all this new brass and cycling out the old with "one dot" on either side of the "FC".

[Texas10]

Back on subject, I've been using 69grain TMK and 25.9 gr of Varget, making about 3125 FPS, Win Brass, CCI BR-4 or CCI-400 and holding 1/3 moa out to 200 yds (so far). Next test will be 300 yds, then off to the 1000 yd range.

The TMK's shoot much flatter than the SMK, in my experience, but I've shot the SMK's out to 750 yds and found them to be very accurate.

[barefooter56]

acdame,
Strangely enough I used one of our 40 grain bullets and the recipe on the front of a can of Benchmark. With the bullets seated to magazine length it was a laser beam. I wish all load development was that easy ! lol !
Take care,
Phil Hoham
Berger Bullet Tech

[Texas Solo]

A buddy who's just getting into F/TR bought a 12FV from Cabelas. I ran a bunch of test combinations based on previous experience.
Nosler 69CC, 25.0 gr Varget, WSR, LC brass. Seated .005" off the lands, we're getting 5 shot groups in the .2's with one .165".
It definitely shot better after 200 rounds had gone down the tube, but he's more than ready for 600 yd F/TR.

[copterdrvr]

Back on subject, I've been using 69grain TMK and 25.9 gr of Varget, making about 3125 FPS, Win Brass, CCI BR-4 or CCI-400 and holding 1/3 moa out to 200 yds (so far). Next test will be 300 yds, then off to the 1000 yd range.

The TMK's shoot much flatter than the SMK, in my experience, but I've shot the SMK's out to 750 yds and found them to be very accurate.

T10 did you have to start from scratch with the load development when you went with the TMK's? I picked up a box of them and tried some already proven powder loads and they didn't do NEARLY as well as the SMK's. Which way did you end up having to go to get comparable results?

Copterdrvr

[Digduggy]

H4895 23.8gr, 55gr hornady


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Texas10]

T10 did you have to start from scratch with the load development when you went with the TMK's? I picked up a box of them and tried some already proven powder loads and they didn't do NEARLY as well as the SMK's. Which way did you end up having to go to get comparable results?

Copterdrvr

Yes, started over for same reason you discovered. Switched powders too, from 8208 to Varget.

[darkker]

Just for the record, You quote listing me as the poster is modified.
When do you think the people writing reloading manuals and the 10's of thousands of reloaders/competitive shooters will catch on?
Outside of bench rest cartridges, can you give me an estimate of the number of top rifle shooters that do not weigh powder?
Out of all of the people that read this forum, how many do you think have abandoned their scales? I admit I have pondered it but the success I have had by weighing powder with the cartridges I choose has me satisfied.

I don't think people should abandon what they are comfortable with, but as I've said a few times there is always more than one way to skin a cat. I don't follow much of the professional shooting classes anymore, but frankly it really is irrelevant. Most competitive sports is as much about doing the same thing as the "leader" as anything. Lemmings are reported as following the leader off of cliffs, doesn't mean it was the "right" thing to do.

Remember as to the manuals, MOST of them do re-prints of data from someone else, or based off of calculations. Hodgdon as an example, doesn't tell, and from conversations even know that, Superformance is a progressive burning curve powder. Much of their data is still in CUP, which was long ago agreed upon as horribly inaccurate when used over @ 45,000 psi. Yet they continue to print it, so does that mean there isn't a better way of doing it? Of course not. Do they advertise that they contract out much of their current testing? Does it even matter? Different means to an end, not a standard sent down by Moses himself.

The point of this, is that WE the reloader/F-class shooter/etc are the waste market, and ALWAYS have been. If you poll the masses, most will tell you that "Extreme" powders are mystical and their results prove it. They will likely also tell you Varget is better than the rest in a 223, and that H335 and Bl-c(2) are different.
Are Extreme powders unicorns? Of course they are not, and that has been definitively proven many many times. In their specific(or similar application) they do quite well, no two ways about it. Is it superb in the 223? They may well indeed have fine results and are happy, I say Cheers!
Is it more temp stable in the 223 than H335? Absolutely not, and there is repeatable testing papers you can read on this. At least some of the work was done by Dr. Denton Bramwell. That does not mean they cannot get fine accuracy, but Hodgdon's marketing has them bedazzled with B.S. Not unlike Hornady and their "melty tips" shenannigans.

Remember that at one point "we" thought the world was flat, because that's what everyone said. Didn't make it right, but for the masses it also probably didn't matter.

[Newbe]

Back on subject, I've been using 69grain TMK and 25.9 gr of Varget, making about 3125 FPS, Win Brass, CCI BR-4 or CCI-400 and holding 1/3 moa out to 200 yds (so far). Next test will be 300 yds, then off to the 1000 yd range.

The TMK's shoot much flatter than the SMK, in my experience, but I've shot the SMK's out to 750 yds and found them to be very accurate.

That seems pretty fast for that bullet. What chrono are you using to verify speed?

And I'd like to see the info showing Varget is no more temp stable than H335. I've seen different tests showing otherwise. Additionally, velocity swings with temp change more with the H335 than with Varget from what I and fellow shooters have seen pressure wise in addition to velocity changes.

[Newbe]

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2016/06/19/powder-temp-stability-hodgdon-extreme-vs-imr-enduron/

Here are swings from just the "temperature insensitive" powders alone.

[Texas10]

I would agree, it does seem fast. FWIW it was a new Caldwell Chrony that belonged to another shooter. Two shots, 3140 and 3126 IIRC, i'd have to check my log. But they are shooting MUCH flatter than SMK load I worked up using 8208XBR. Personally, I don't care so much that they all launch at the same speed, as long as they all go through the same hole...LOL.

From reading on other forums, Varget does not exhibit good temp stability in the 223 like it does with larger calibers. Not mentioned was whether or not that lack of stability was related to lighter 50 to 55 grain bullets, or the heavier 223 bullets that Varget needs to work against.

Maybe some of the "gray beards" here will chime in with some good experience and data to help sort this out. Although i definitely have a gray beard, I don't have decades of experience with hand loading like some others here do.

Apologies if I've offended anyone with my age related comments.

[Newbe]

I would agree, it does seem fast. FWIW it was a new Caldwell Chrony that belonged to another shooter. Two shots, 3140 and 3126 IIRC, i'd have to check my log. But they are shooting MUCH flatter than SMK load I worked up using 8208XBR. Personally, I don't care so much that they all launch at the same speed, as long as they all go through the same hole...LOL.

From reading on other forums, Varget does not exhibit good temp stability in the 223 like it does with larger calibers. Not mentioned was whether or not that lack of stability was related to lighter 50 to 55 grain bullets, or the heavier 223 bullets that Varget needs to work against.

Maybe some of the "gray beards" here will chime in with some good experience and data to help sort this out. Although i definitely have a gray beard, I don't have decades of experience with hand loading like some others here do.

Apologies if I've offended anyone with my age related comments.

What length barrel?

[darkker]

And I'd like to see the info showing Varget is no more temp stable than H335. I've seen different tests showing otherwise. Additionally, velocity swings with temp change more with the H335 than with Varget from what I and fellow shooters have seen pressure wise in addition to velocity changes.

Read FAQ #5
http://www.ramshot.com/faq/

Some of Denton's work can still be read here:
https://www.shootingsoftware.com/tech.htm


It's about application. The Naval Warefare Testing Center tests for temp swings much larger than what Hodgdon says they test at. They also show pressure traces for all of the tests, and actually list number of shots, etc to make it a valid comparison. Most don't think that "temp stable" powders begin to slow down with increased temps(to a point), but they do, and one of the ways you can tell how stable they are in an application.

Again, this is about application. It doesn't mean that Varget won't get you fine accuracy in a 223, it in fact can. But the notion of "it's stable and therefore magic everywhere" is Hooey. Unless you love to cook your ammo in a hot chamber, the whole thing is overblown for most of the fine folks out there in TV land.

[Robinhood]

When shooting enough to get your barrel hot, keep your bolt open and the cartridge in the magazine(out of the chamber) until you are ready to shoot. If you chamber a round when the barrel is hot and the time between that and pulling the trigger varies, you will see velocity differences.

[Texas10]

What length barrel?

Sorry for the important omission. 26 in Criterion match, 8 twist model 12 BVSS.

[Newbe]

Sorry for the important omission. 26 in Criterion match, 8 twist model 12 BVSS.

Well the longer barrel could definitely help you with increased velocity. At least to a point.

[Newbe]

Read FAQ #5
http://www.ramshot.com/faq/

Some of Denton's work can still be read here:
https://www.shootingsoftware.com/tech.htm


It's about application. The Naval Warefare Testing Center tests for temp swings much larger than what Hodgdon says they test at. They also show pressure traces for all of the tests, and actually list number of shots, etc to make it a valid comparison. Most don't think that "temp stable" powders begin to slow down with increased temps(to a point), but they do, and one of the ways you can tell how stable they are in an application.

Again, this is about application. It doesn't mean that Varget won't get you fine accuracy in a 223, it in fact can. But the notion of "it's stable and therefore magic everywhere" is Hooey. Unless you love to cook your ammo in a hot chamber, the whole thing is overblown for most of the fine folks out there in TV land.
Of course it's not magic everywhere, and for those that don't extend their range, it is probably not an issue unless they're running on the ragged edge at winter time temperatures.

As you know, for long range you want those velocities to be as tight as possible.

Additionally, I'd venture to guess if your not smack dab right in the middle of an accuracy node, a slight variance in pressure and velocity will cause accuracy and poi to shift considerably.

[Newbe]

Read FAQ #5
http://www.ramshot.com/faq/

Some of Denton's work can still be read here:
https://www.shootingsoftware.com/tech.htm


It's about application. The Naval Warefare Testing Center tests for temp swings much larger than what Hodgdon says they test at. They also show pressure traces for all of the tests, and actually list number of shots, etc to make it a valid comparison. Most don't think that "temp stable" powders begin to slow down with increased temps(to a point), but they do, and one of the ways you can tell how stable they are in an application.

Again, this is about application. It doesn't mean that Varget won't get you fine accuracy in a 223, it in fact can. But the notion of "it's stable and therefore magic everywhere" is Hooey. Unless you love to cook your ammo in a hot chamber, the whole thing is overblown for most of the fine folks out there in TV land.
I've read the top link before. The bottom one was new to me and a good read. Thanks for providing those.