Bench Rest Shooting

[Balljoint]

Anyone have the web site for the Huston Warehouse have a print out from a friend but no web site

[82boy]

http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html

[Balljoint]

Thanks for the web site

[memilanuk]

Okay... so lets go with 22" as 'normal'...

I guess I'm used to coming at things from the other end... in HP the max weight is whatever you're able to hold up, and in F-Class the F/Open limit allows for a pretty stoutly built gun. F/TR is a little more restrictive, but still unless you're using the biggest scope/bipod/barrel combination you can find, it's pretty easy to stay under weight, even allowing for local variations in scale reads. Having to plan ahead and anticipate what compromises may need to be made is new for me.

Somewhere I had a list of weight of various components, but they were for a plain Target action, not a LRPV repeater. Come to think of it... Savage sells the bare Target and Varmint actions, but I don't think they list the LRPV at all. Wonder if I could twist their arm, or if I'd have to buy a complete rifle and part it out, or if Northlander might have one floating around...

My other concern with using one of the Savage actions in BR competition is the smoothness of the action. I can 'machine-gun' my 12 F/TR with the best of them, but thats with the wide legs of a bipod helping keep things stabilized and I have to wait for the target to go down and come back up anyways (@ 1k I can have the gun reloaded and be back on target watching the target frame go down into the pits, even with speedy service). On my F/Open gun, with a 3" wide fore-end and a complete T&T job from SSS... the dang thing keeps waffling around in the bags, and I spend more time getting it lined up and back on target; I actually shoot faster with my F/TR rifle than with my F/Open gun. The culprit seems to be opening the bolt - getting it to cam open torques the gun in the bags quite a bit.

For BR I gather there are 'runners' and 'pickers' - i.e. those that try to get all their shots off in one condition as fast as possible, and those that wait patiently for their condition to come back. Given the short time limit for a given relay, it seems like a combination of the two might be necessary on any given day. But if I have to wrestle the gun back in place after every shot... it would seem I'm going to be at quite a disadvantage right out of the gate...

Monte

[82boy]

As far as smoothness of a Savage, I can say this that My SSS T&T actions are a hair smoother than my Bats, on opening. If you T&T gun is disturbing the bags then you need to talk to Fred, something is wrong.

It depends on the conditions on how you would shoot. If the conditions are switchy and hold for short times then a run and gun style works well. If the conditions are stable and constant then picking would be a better option. I would say that picking works better at 100 yards, but running works better at longer ranges. (200+)

You would be surprised how long 7 minutes is. Many times at our club match's the match's are finished way before the 2 minute warning is given out. There has been many times I have shot my sighter's and group, and looked down and had 4 or 5 minutes on the clock.

On weight you would be surprised how hard it is to get down to 10.5.

[memilanuk]

As far as smoothness of a Savage, I can say this that My SSS T&T actions are a hair smoother than my Bats, on opening. If you T&T gun is disturbing the bags then you need to talk to Fred, something is wrong.

I forgot to mention a few caveats on that, as we were heading off to dinner and I had to run ;)

The action feels pretty smooth/slick, it's just when opening it while actually firing from position. Not especially hot loads either, but I think Fred mentioned when I posted a picture of the gun that it looked like the center of gravity was awful high with the way the action set in the stock. At the time I didn't think it mattered much, as you can only shoot so fast in F-Class - but I'd forgotten that time spent wrestling the gun back into place is time not spent watching the flags and mirage, even if you're waiting on the target pullers to get it back in the air.

I have a SSS Dogtown stock that I'm planning on transplanting that barreled action into... with the lower CG it'll be interesting to see if there is an improvement in the way the gun handles when opening/closing the bolt. I've had to go to more of a 'put thumb on the tang and lever it up' motion to keep it from rocking/tipping in the bags, vs. my F/TR rifle where I pretty much fan the bolt open with my hand, catch the ejecting case in my fingers, put it in the box/grab another one, toss it in the chamber and fan the bolt closed, slowing the closure the last 1/2" to prevent tripping the sear against the Accutrigger safety.

I was fingerin' one of those Stolle-actioned rifles that was for sale earlier this year... from just holding it in my hands over the gun counter it didn't feel any smoother than the SSS T&T'd action (or my main F/TR action, for that matter)... but I've never used on of the high-dollar actions from position for a whole match, either.



You would be surprised how long 7 minutes is. Many times at our club match's the match's are finished way before the 2 minute warning is given out. There has been many times I have shot my sighter's and group, and looked down and had 4 or 5 minutes on the clock.


I suppose so... if conditions and target service are cooperating, I can get 4-6 sighters + 20 record shots down range in well under 5 minutes... at 1000yds. But I have the option to milk that out to 25+ minutes if needed - thats the part thats going to take some mental reprogramming ;)



On weight you would be surprised how hard it is to get down to 10.5.


Do you think it would be better to just go for legal HV class with the Savage, or go with a used purpose-built custom gun (probably Stolle) rather than trying to fight too many battles at once just starting out? If push comes to shove, I imagine the local guys will probably let me shoot along side with whatever I feel like using, short of maybe the 110BA ;) so maybe I need to get my 6 Dasher up and running again and just use that to get my feet wet...

[82boy]

On weight you would be surprised how hard it is to get down to 10.5.


Do you think it would be better to just go for legal HV class with the Savage, or go with a used purpose-built custom gun (probably Stolle) rather than trying to fight too many battles at once just starting out?


Well I hate to blaspheme but if given the choice I would pick a used Stole over a Savage do to slight difference in price. I would not recommend building a heavy gun, I would say build a light gun that way you can shoot it in both classes. The Stole will not shoot any better than the tuned Savage, but it is easier to arrive at the conclusion with the Stole.

[AVanGorder]

Is anyone on this form shooting true Bench Rest

Yes - I'm a Score shooter down to the core. Love the stuff. Without a doubt, my favorite rifles are made by Borden Rifles http://www.bordenrifles.com/ They manufacture the actions as well as build complete rifles. Here are pics of some of my Bench Rest Rifles. I have gotten lazy with the picture taking but I do have a bunch of pictures at this site that I took from various BR matches. http://imageevent.com/avangorder/guns/matches

http://photos.imageevent.com/avangorder/guns/variouspics/large/Weaver.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/avangorder/guns/variouspics/large/Blue%20Borden%20LV.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/avangorder/guns/rifles/benchrestrifles/large/Multiple03.jpg
Julia on the right - She is holding Snoopy one of her 3 BR rifles. It's an HV in 30BR.
http://photos.imageevent.com/avangorder/guns/variouspics/large/Van_Gorders_2.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/avangorder/guns/variouspics/large/Snoopy03.jpg

[MikeCTX]

Nice lookin collection of BR rifles...thanks for sharing

[Danley]

Nice lookin collection of BR rifles...thanks for sharing


x2 ... im sitting here drooling :P

[82boy]

I will say you got some nice looking rigs, but you need to build a Savage BR gun. You would be suprised how good it does.

[AVanGorder]

I will say you got some nice looking rigs, but you need to build a Savage BR gun. You would be suprised how good it does.

Been there, done that, still have it. It shoots okay, but not as well as the high end actions.

Adrian

[82boy]

Been there, done that, still have it. It shoots okay, but not as well as the high end actions.
Adrian


Then must must have not done it right, I have seen several that hang right in there with their custom counterparts all day long. I have one and a friend of mine has one built and they hang right with our Bats, right to the very thousands of an inch. Funny thing is with a SSS T&T job the bolt opening is much smoother on the Savage than any of our Bats.

[yobuck]

the year end aggregate award at williamsport has been claimed at least 3 times by shooters using savage actions.
twice by the same man who happens to be a close friend.

[AVanGorder]

Been there, done that, still have it. It shoots okay, but not as well as the high end actions.
Adrian


Then must must have not done it right, I have seen several that hang right in there with their custom counterparts all day long. I have one and a friend of mine has one built and they hang right with our Bats, right to the very thousands of an inch. Funny thing is with a SSS T&T job the bolt opening is much smoother on the Savage than any of our Bats.

I am probably a bigger fan of Savages than most on this board so believe me I'm not talking trash about them. But, will someone please show me where a Savage won a 100 or 200 yard registered Benchrest match.

Adrian

[82boy]

I am probably a bigger fan of Savages than most on this board so believe me I'm not talking trash about them. But, will someone please show me where a Savage won a 100 or 200 yard registered Benchrest match.
Adrian


Well the problem is there have never been one, but that doesn't mean it is not possible. Making a claim the because it has never been done states that it can not be done is narrow mindedness. Using that logic, Does it mean that because there are hundreds even thousands of shooters shooting Bat actions, and only about 20 of them are competitive, that a Bat action is junk? Or does it mean that if you look at the equipment list for this years match's and 90% of them are Bat actions that a Panda is inferior? In registered short range benchrest, there are a few names that dominate the field of winning, it is seldom that a new comer comes in and starts winning. What ever these few top names are shooting is what is winning the game. It is the shooter not the equipment, that is winning.

The biggest problem is that benchrest is a monkey see monkey do type of sport. Watch equipment list and talk to shooters you will see a pattern. If Tony Boyer shoots a bat action, then everyone shoots a bat action. When Jackie Schmidt shoot a group agg record with a 30BR, look at what happened people flocked to build 30 BR's, and it was all the rage all over ever sight. If you don't believe it, talk to Randy Robinette of BIB bullets, and ask him how many 30 Cal bullets he has sold this year after this record compared to past years. I would guarantee that if Tony Boyer would pick up and shoot a Savage, every body in the benchrest game would follow suite.

The problem is none of the top shooters are grabbing Savage and shooting them, but think about it, why would they? By the time you put the money into making a Savage competitive, you into a custom action price. On top of that some of these top shooters only shoot what is given to them, and would not spend a red cent to go out and buy something. If Savage is not offering to pay someone to shoot their action, or even give away an action, why would someone like Tony Boyer want to even try it? And to add why would a top competitive shooter want to go backwards and shoot an action that is not as refined as what they are use to. I am willing to bet you could never get one of the old time competitive shooters that shot Remington's that later made a jump to a custom action to ever go back and shoot a Remington. It is not because it is that it is not competitive, it is a step backward.

Lets figure this, how many Savage rifles do you suppose that has been built for NBRSA/IBS register competition, I am willing to bet it is less than a hand full. Lets add this how many Savage rifle have bee entered in to a NBRSA/IBS register match? I would say it is close to zero. Now lets compare that to how many Bats', Pandas, Remington's, ETC have been entered, and built, compared to a win ratio.

The other problems that have come around with Savage was up until the last few years thee was no competitive aftermarket parts. There was no 2oz trigger, was one of the biggest hold ups. The market has been dominated by Remington, and it clones do to the aftermarket parts availability. Back in the day when Remington actions was the king, there was nothing for Savage. I remember a talk with Randy Robinette I had, he said that back in the early 1980's there was a few fellows that was shooting hunter class with Savage and they did well, but what killed it for them was, the better parts available for the Remington, so they switched. If SSS was in business in the late 1970's with the parts they have now, I am willing to bet you would see more Savage rifle and even Savage clones in the registered match's of today.

There has been other problems that have plagued the Savage rifle from being used in competition, such as an interpretation of the rules. Does the barrel nut disqualify the gun? I have been told about a shooter that was very competitive with a Savage in competition, at first he had problems with making weight, and when he did he was disqualified do to the barrel nut. The problem is that there is still a prejudice against Savage guns, and some people will stop at nothing.

Getting back to my quote, I HAVE built a Savage that is every bit as competitive as my Bats. I have a friend that in the past has won several piece of wood in NBRSA/IBS competition, that has built a competition Savage, and he say it will shoot every bit as good as his Bats. I have talked to other competitive shooters that have multitude of NBRSA/IBS wins, and they say that without a doubt a Savage action is every bit as competitive as any other custom action. Just because you are unable to make a Savage work doesn't mean that it is imposable, and just because there is no NBRSA/IBS wins doesn't mean that it is impossible. As they say with the lottery you got to play to win, and if no one is playing that how can some one win? To end this how many Remington actions have won IBS/NBRSA registered match lately? It is very few to none. Does this mean that a Remington is unable to compete with a Custom action? Same logic.

[Terry Balding]

Last year I shot the Wabash IN matches, the VHA 600 yard Benchrest matches, and the Nationals in St. Louis. My goal was to learn how to shoot benchrest. I learned a lot last year and expect to learn more this year.

Start shooting, you will have a great time and meet a lot of nice people.

Terry

[memilanuk]

There has been other problems that have plagued the Savage rifle from being used in competition, such as an interpretation of the rules. Does the barrel nut disqualify the gun? I have been told about a shooter that was very competitive with a Savage in competition, at first he had problems with making weight, and when he did he was disqualified do to the barrel nut. The problem is that there is still a prejudice against Savage guns, and some people will stop at nothing.


Now *that* is interesting... I'd be curious exactly how a barrel nut disqualifies a gun in any form of competition. Any details?

[82boy]

Now *that* is interesting... I'd be curious exactly how a barrel nut disqualifies a gun in any form of competition. Any details?


From what I was told the person ruling in the match that shooter was shooting in considered the barrel nut a "tuning device." It is not at the muzzle so it is illeagle. We all know that the barrel nut has nothing to do with tuning of the barrel, but this was how the rules was interrupted. It could also be considered as a "block" or partial "sleeve" I know this is grasping at straws, but in hunter class NBRSA rules under section (G) it states that "Nothing may be fastened to the barrel except sights, sight bases, mirage shields, and original manufacturer's attachments." Now does a barrel nut on an aftermarket barrel count as a "original manufacturer's attachments ?"

More importantly the statement I made was that there is prejudice against Savage rifles, and people will use interpretations to rule something they don't like out. I believe this was the case in this matter.

[memilanuk]

Sounds like the kind of crock-o-crap thing that would be grounds for an appeal to the upstream sanctioning body. Done quietly at first, with no ranting/raving/righteous indignation at the time of the occurrence (the most difficult part, for most people) so as to not tip your hand to them as to what you intend - otherwise they'll surely contact *their* buddies upstream and have a chance to tell their story first. Contrived interpretations of the rules such as you describe are generally pretty hard (though not impossible) to sustain in a more formal environment presented to people not directly involved at ground level.

Definitely not something I'd let pass if it happened to me - no point in letting a precedent be established, or if one is going to be set anyways, make sure it's known far and wide just what the driving forces are.

Of course, thats the benefit of hindsight, etc. But I have had to deal with similarly 'problematic' match directors - not anti-Savage, but anti F-Class, and letting them get away with it once or twice just emboldens them until you finally have to take the gloves off and straighten things out the hard way.