A 17 and Ammo

[Appleseed]

Have a CZ 512 in 22 wmr and have been eyeballing the A17 Savage because we never had a problem finding inexpensive .17 hmr ammo. It runs as much as $6 less a box than the .22 wmr. Reading some of the post on these "new" rifles and wondering if I should wait another year until the bugs get worked out.

[Appleseed]

Anyone tried the factory wood stocks? Bedding would be easier than plastic.

[Prarie dog shooter]

I bought mine new last year and directly took it to shoot dogs in Wyoming for a week. It worked well, had a few problems, but the accuracy was pretty darn good.

[Poor Shot]

I use CCI 17gr. TNT in mine instead of the "recommended" CCI A17. It seems to be more accurate than the A17 ammo. It is also much cleaner. The CCI A17 ammo is just about the dirtiest ammo I have ever used, in any of my rifles. I should also say I shoot left handed so it is easy to know what comes flying out when the brass is ejected.

[Mike.h]

I use CCI 17gr. TNT in mine instead of the "recommended" CCI A17. It seems to be more accurate than the A17 ammo. It is also much cleaner. The CCI A17 ammo is just about the dirtiest ammo I have ever used, in any of my rifles. I should also say I shoot left handed so it is easy to know what comes flying out when the brass is ejected.

What kind of accuracy are you getting?

Thanks,
Mike

[Poor Shot]

Using the CCI A17 ammo, five shots can just about be covered with an old silver dollar at 50 yds. Using the CCI TNT ammo at the same distance, five shots can just about be covered with a quarter. And with the TNT ammo I don't get a face full of unburned powder. Since 50-60 yds is the longest distance I can shoot (My house is surrounded by woods and I can't see further than 50-60 yds) I have not tried to see how accurate either of these bullets are at 100 yds at the range. I have no problem hitting squirrels at 50-60 yds with the TNT ammo. Also remember, I am "Poor Shot".

[Mike.h]

Went to the range earlier today with the new A17. The model that I picked up from Sportsman's Warehouse has the (Boyds) laminated thumbhole stock, with a fluted barrel, which is a little heaver then the earlier model. http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/A17TargetThumbhole

I did bed the action after watching this video. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQTt-Jcx7uw)

After zeroing the scope at 50 yards, I tried 4 different types of ammo. The recommended CCI A17 varmint tip, Hornady 17g v-max, CCI v-max, and the CCI TNT 17 HMR (hollow point). At 50 yards, the best group, was the Hornady 17 HMR (a fuzz under a half inch), the next best was the CCI v-max, 4 touching, half inch with one flyer, followed by the A !7 varmint tip, which could be covered with a quarter, and last the TNT hollow point, 3 touching with 2 flyers.

By the time I moved to 100 yards, the wind was kicking up pretty good. The Hornady 17g v-max and the CCI v-max ammo consistently shoot tighter groups then the CCI A 17 varmint tip and/or the hollow points.

Next step is to try to do something with the trigger, because it sucks, and try to make the stock a little longer, maybe a slip on butt pad...something.

All in all, I'm pretty happy with it, although the mag takes some getting used to. I find it easier if the bolt is locked back.

[SavRimfire]

Depending on your ability and comfort level, you can help the trigger quite a bit with some very fine sand paper but if you've never worked on a trigger before, I DO NOT recommend it and you'll be better off taking it to a qualified gunsmith. One of the biggest problems I've found with the A17 trigger is it has a lot of pre-travel (movement before the sear drops the hammer) and that pre-travel is very gritty. With some VERY light sanding followed by a good polishing, I used 600, 1500 & 2000, you can help eliminate the majority of it.

But again, if it's something you've never done before, it's best you take it to a gunsmith.

[Mike.h]

Depending on your ability and comfort level, you can help the trigger quite a bit with some very fine sand paper but if you've never worked on a trigger before, I DO NOT recommend it and you'll be better off taking it to a qualified gunsmith. One of the biggest problems I've found with the A17 trigger is it has a lot of pre-travel (movement before the sear drops the hammer) and that pre-travel is very gritty. With some VERY light sanding followed by a good polishing, I used 600, 1500 & 2000, you can help eliminate the majority of it.

But again, if it's something you've never done before, it's best you take it to a gunsmith.

Thanks for the heads up, I am familiar with this trigger, and have refined a couple on model 1911's. I hope I have the necessary stones for this trigger, (no pun intended).

[SavRimfire]

Thanks for the heads up, I am familiar with this trigger, and have refined a couple on model 1911's. I hope I have the necessary stones for this trigger, (no pun intended).

Mike.h, the A17 trigger, in a lot of ways, is very similar to an AR15 mil-spec trigger. The face of the sear on my A17 had a burr from when it was machined. The sear engagement notch on the hammer, also, had a slight burr. With a piece of 600 wet/dry sandpaper that I wrapped around a small file so I could keep the surface straight and square I cleaned up both the sear and hammer sear engagement notch. Then I polished both surfaces with 1500 followed by 2000 wet sandpaper wrapped around the same file. Re-assembled the trigger and tried it out. It was night and day difference.

Couple FYI's for when you re-assemble. 1) The safety selector has a tiny little piece that you can easily miss and not see that has to go between the fork on the safety trigger. The safety trigger is the silver blade you depress while squeezing the trigger. The "fork" I'm referring to will be obvious once you get the trigger apart but the little piece that has to go in that fork is easily missed because it pivots on its own and will fall forward and easily goes un-noticed. This will make more sense once you get it apart. 2) Once you have the trigger re-assembled and you're ready to put the trigger assembly back in the receiver, make sure you cock the hammer or it'll be under the bolt and have no way to reset.

Also, since you'll already have it all apart, some of the outer edges on the different pieces have a tiny burr, I went ahead and polished all those edges as well. And, don't forget to put a little dab of lubricant on the tip of the sear and the hammer sear engagement notch.

[Mike.h]

OK, thanks

[Keith M]

I recently purchased an A17 because of what I had read and heard of their accuracy. After shooting a few hundred rounds of ammo that was available locally, I purchased a variety of ammo to see if there was a particular load that shot best in my rifle. Shown below is a table I put together from 3 separate sessions on my range. I am convinced that the rifle itself is more accurate than any of the ammo available to shoot in it. I have shot many .25" groups, but it is hard to get all 5 of any particular group of shots to do so without "fliers". On average there was 1 flier per group in these 3 sessions, so as to give a better look at what each cartridge could do I also show the remaining 4 shot group sizes. The groups shown below are specific to my gun and might not be relevant as a blanket statement across all guns.
Probably the most amazing thing to come out of this for me was the relative group placement across all the different ammo. Other than the Win. 15.5gr and the CCI 20gr. loads, the center of the 4 shot groups of all the rest were within 1/4" inch of the center. That is amazing, because even testing several different varieties of standard .22 ammo will usually result in point of impact differences measuring in inches. I wish I knew how to attach a picture and I would post an example of the actual groups.
The trigger pull experience on mine was also horrible. After shooting a couple thousand rounds it is getting better, but with a "shooter" like the A17 I can't believe that Savage wouldn't want the initial shooting experience to be "wow" - instead of "what the hell". 10 seconds jigged on a belt sander would smooth the end of the trigger sear and make all the difference in the world. (was in such a hurry to shoot it, I haven't done it myself yet)
Another thing I have found is that cleaning makes no difference in the group sizes. Have tested this several times and can find no improvement, but that is a pretty small hole and I do clean as a GP - and if I won't be shooting for a while to leave it clean and lubed.
The testing below was done at 52yds., with a shooter error of less than a bullet diameter. (20 power & fine crosshair)



Group 1

Group 1

Group 2

Group 2

Group 3

Group 3

5 shot

4 shot



Ammo Brand and Bullet Weight

5 shot

4 shot

5 shot

4 shot

5 shot

4 shot

Average

Average














CCI - A17 - 17gr.

1

0.69

1.56

0.63

0.81

0.63

1.12

0.65



CCI - TNT - 16gr.

0.88

0.69

0.88

0.75

0.44

0.38

0.73

0.61



Win. - Poly Tip - 15.5gr.

1.25

0.69

1.25

0.81



1.25

0.75



Rem. - Accu. Tip - 17gr.

0.69

0.63

1

0.75

0.69

0.56

0.79

0.65



Fed. V Max - 17gr.

0.81

0.5

1.25

0.5

1.19

0.88

1.08

0.63



CCI - Varmit - 17gr.

0.56

0.5

0.88

0.5

0.63

0.56

0.69

0.52



CCI - FMJ - 20gr.

1.1

0.38

0.88

0.38



0.99

0.38



CCI - TNT - 17gr.

0.63

0.63

0.81

0.62

0.63

0.63

0.69

0.63



Horn. V Max - 17gr.





0.75

0.69

0.75

0.69




















Average Group Size:

0.90

0.61

[Mike.h]

Good job Keith. I find it interesting that you had success with the cci tnt 17g ammo. On my groups I usually had three touching with 2 flyers which would open the group to 1.5 - 2. inches. I'll try different box, and see if it make a difference... as of right now I'm pretty happy with the 17g v-max from either cci or hornady.

On another note I was able to clean up the trigger a little, with a stone. And on the very rear where the spring screws in, I carefully milled, (sanded) enough off so the spring would screw in another 1/2 turn. Trigger pull is about 2 1/2 now.

[Keith M]

Ammo Update --- Following the link Mike H. had posted above, I watched someone else's work with bedding the A17, and the dramatic difference it made in eliminating the fliers. Having already ordered a wood stock, I decided I had nothing to lose by bedding the plastic stock it came with. Using small wood blocks to take up space, and using clay to build dams to contain the epoxy, I filled the voids surrounding the plastic cylinder that holds the front of the action in place. (left about 1/16" below top of cylinder) I then bedded the front and back of the action using regular bedding compound.
I only had enough of my variety of ammo left to shoot one round of groups - see below - but I think it is obvious that the single plastic cylinder that holds the front of the action in place is the culprit in allowing the fliers to happen. It is a very "soft" mounting system at best, and apparently allows the torque created by the action to throw a considerable amount of the bullets around. As you will see in the table, I still had 2 fliers, but that is an 80% improvement from previous groups. Once I get it bedded in a real stock, I believe they will virtually disappear completely. I understand the A17 is now available from certain suppliers with a laminated stock. I would certainly go that route to start with, and then bed it for what should then be a true tack driver.
Check out the link provided by Mike H. above to see a more professional look at the difference bedding can make. While I'm waiting on the new stock, I'll tune-up the trigger a little.


Savage A17 Groups at 52 yards (shooter error less than 1/8th Inch)










Group 1
Group 1
Group 2
Group 2
Group 3
Group 3
5 shot
4 shot
After Bedding


Ammo Brand and Bullet Weight
5 shot
4 shot
5 shot
4 shot
5 shot
4 shot
Average
Average
5 shot
4 shot















CCI - A17 - 17gr.
1
0.69
1.56
0.63
0.81
0.63
1.12
0.65
0.69
0.69


CCI - TNT - 16gr.
0.88
0.69
0.88
0.75
0.44
0.38
0.73
0.61
0.44
0.25


Win. - Poly Tip - 15.5gr.
1.25
0.69
1.25
0.81


1.25
0.75
0.44
0.44


Rem. - Accu. Tip - 17gr.
0.69
0.63
1
0.75
0.69
0.56
0.79
0.65
0.62
0.5


Fed. V Max - 17gr.
0.81
0.5
1.25
0.5
1.19
0.88
1.08
0.63
0.56
0.44


CCI - Varmit - 17gr.
0.56
0.5
0.88
0.5
0.63
0.56
0.69
0.52
1
0.38


CCI - FMJ - 20gr.
1.1
0.38
0.88
0.38


0.99
0.38




CCI - TNT - 17gr.
0.63
0.63
0.81
0.62
0.63
0.63
0.69
0.63
0.38
0.31


Horn. V Max - 17gr.




0.75
0.69
0.75
0.69
1
0.5





















Average
0.90
0.61
0.57
0.39

[SavRimfire]

Depending on how good or bad the trigger in your A17 is, I'd bet your groups will shrink considerably with a good tune on your trigger.

[Mike.h]

Good job Keith,

BTW, I really like the thumbhole stock. I wish the magazine was a little more user friendly, and like I mentioned in an earlier post, it loads easier with the bolt locked back. I did find some cci tnt 16g ammo, looking forward to getting back to the range, hopefully this Friday.