Random Extraction Issue

[BillPa]

What I ran into on the dial indicator was that once the bolt was open it would move back more as no longer forced to be forward.

I use a Starrett clamp (169G ?) on OD of the receiver ring to mount the indicator and the receiver in a padded jaw vise. That way I can operate the bolt and watch at what point in the rotation the PE engages and by how much when the bolt is locked and unlocked pushing forward on the BAS.


Do the set screws gouge the back of your receiver at all?

None that I have taken notice to.

Bill

[Robinhood]

operating the bolt with the firing pin removed reveals much.

[Texas10]

I wish I'd put on a rain coat before I started reading this thread :puke:

[sigfla]

After having read these threads and watched a few youtube videos I think i got a grasp of the issue. I question why savage went to a ramped baffle setup to accomplish PE. The fix doesn't seem too complicated however and Savage OR an aftermarket producer of different size baffles would help. These guns are popular so hopefully someone steps up with the easy fix. In the alternative a guy with a lathe could prob shorten the bolt body a hair or 2 and allow the bolt handle to engage the cam sooner. Does anyone know if the aftermarket bolt bodies out there have this issue?

[sigfla]

I can see on my unfired new to me Model 12 that I have very little PE. My bolt handle engages the ramp very little and late in the lift cycle. Given the ball bearing setup in the baffle I wonder why Savage didn't use something similar to push the baffle away from the action? I don't see where having too much PE would hurt and it would accomplish the same thing as the set screws. Hell even a simple leaf spring screwed into the baffle would fix it.

[RC20]

I won't say its accurate, but the idea seems to have been to have less machining of the bolt. Assemble more easier to make parts. While a lot of parts its also simple. I am impressed with it.

I think the Axis do machine it into the back of the receiver.

A real machinist can weight in maybe. With CNC maybe is far less or no issue.

As for more ramp of effect, that gets into design and material strength. A really hung up case is going to stress the extractor as well as the rim.
It may not be the answer, its a possibility. Lesser material stretch when first built possible as well and just carried on.

How high is the ramp on your baffle (total front to back, and then the thickness of the baffle non ramp area?

The various remedies are effective, I force tested that. Question to me is the right question being addressed. I can see chamber variations being a factor as the reamer quality (new, how many barrels did it ream) as well as chamber finish and all hidden. If true, direct input to Savage would then get to where it needs to be.

I have read reports of rough barrel, none of mine are, but that would indicated a quality control failure. Its a hard or time consuming are to check on.

I know it can happen, my nephew got a Sig and the shells were all marred and failing to extract right. They replaced it, pretty non Sig reputation for quality though and very obvious when you looked, so no one looked, no automatic quality check or....

[RC20]

I wish I'd put on a rain coat before I started reading this thread :puke:

Well unless someone was forcing you to, you did not have to keep reading did you?

If someone is let us know, we can call the Jandarmes to your rescue.

[Robinhood]

Good comments and questions Sigfla. Many Savagesmiths have used BillPA's fix.... and a fine one it is. Gunsmiths on the other hand, put the bolt body in the mill and shorten the bolt handle end of the body after taking some measurements. they may use the shim between the baffle and the rear of the action and remove that amount from the rear of the bolt body. Manufacturing tolerances on several dimensions and even wear can cause the problem.

If someone trues an action they may skim the lug abutments and they may touch off the rear of the bolt head. take too much and PE rears its head. The only fix is to shorten the rear of the bolt or to add material behind the rear action face in front of the rear baffle.
As for the reason savage used that method....Take a look at the rear of other manufacture actions. Look at the difficulty of machining. Savage cast a piece and is done with it. Remington has its share of PE issues. Ive seen many Rem. actions/rifles with changed bolts that have no PE.

[sigfla]

Good comments and questions Sigfla. Many Savagesmiths have used BillPA's fix.... and a fine one it is. Gunsmiths on the other hand, put the bolt body in the mill and shorten the bolt handle end of the body after taking some measurements. they may use the shim between the baffle and the rear of the action and remove that amount from the rear of the bolt body. Manufacturing tolerances on several dimensions and even wear can cause the problem.

If someone trues an action they may skim the lug abutments and they may touch off the rear of the bolt head. take too much and PE rears its head. The only fix is to shorten the rear of the bolt or to add material behind the rear action face in front of the rear baffle.
As for the reason savage used that method....Take a look at the rear of other manufacture actions. Look at the difficulty of machining. Savage cast a piece and is done with it. Remington has its share of PE issues. Ive seen many Rem. actions/rifles with changed bolts that have no PE.

Its a great and simple setup for sure. There is a ton of aftermarket available so along with the "Pro" fixes it seems a larger rear baffle should be available from somewhere... I do wonder however if a simple leaf spring or even a grub screw (going all the way through to be adjusted from the rear forward) is a better option for Savage. I can envision a gun wearing to the point that PE becomes an issue even if it wasn't when new. Certainly a clean chamber and good fully sized brass would improve the situation but a better fix would be in a simple redesign of the baffle. They could even produce them oversized and let the final fit be done with a hand file or lathe. I don't think the baffle has to be perfectly square to the rear of the action to work right. The oversize portion could even be a sort of built up tab in front of the ramp, between it and the action so only a small portion would need to be filed. All they need to do is modify the mold a bit for that part.

[Robinhood]

What do you mean by leaf spring?

[sigfla]

A half moon bent small piece of metal screwed down on one end or both that has some spring that would push the baffle away from the action. Not a great description but I used to see them in my old RC days.

[sigfla]

Kinda like the spring you see on an old girls hair clip if that makes more sense

[RC20]

Wavy washer?

[Robinhood]

I think the force required for some stuck cases would render any spring nothing more than a shim in the end. What kind of RC did you enjoy. Associated electrics type stuff or...?

[sigfla]

Oh I used to have a bunch of MRC Tamiya, Kyosho, Traxxas, HPI gas, Losi 5T gas, a few others over the years. I loved building but driving and cleaning not as much. Still have my 2 gassers in storage and a few nitro cars/trucks. I keep threatening to break them out and play again.

[sigfla]

Wavy washer?

Yeah something like that.