Random Extraction Issue

[Robinhood]

Do not use oil in the chamber.

[RC20]

Good discussion point. I am not sure I got all the lube out of the chamber of the 11. I am a lube it guy, but I run dry patch through the barrel when done. We are pretty dry so rust is not a major issue. If I was in high humidity I would leave it in the rifle until I took it out to shoot.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/GunTech/Bolt-Action-Rifles-Cleaning-and-Maintaining-your-Receiver-/detail.htm?lid=16128

Long term the chamber is a plain steel (at least in the case of Chrome Moly) that can rust. Usually the chamber gets oiled by the oil patch run down the bore.

This time I cleaned the chamber and don't remember how I treated it. You certainly don't want any excess in there (i.e. I am defining that as a film that does not come out when dry patched)

On the other hand some machine guns had an oiler for the cases or they did not work.

The huge do not do it was grease on bullets.

So this last cleaning while I did clean and lube the chamber I also made sure it was as swabbed out of excess oil as the bore with the dry patch run through it.

Will report in a week or two.

[Robinhood]

My apologies, I assumed (you know what that means) that you used oil to help with the extraction issue and not for rust protection.

[RC20]

Thank you but also none needed. I surveyed for a lot of years, cross checks were not only good, they were mandatory.

Shooting done wrong can get you hurt or killed, we look out for each other. Better to check than assume. You did the right thing.

I also think its a good discussion to repeat as new people are exposed to this all the time. A lot of times you don't know you are missing information until its too late.

The greased bullet debacle of the 20s or 30s was a case in point where myth trumped common sense.

Surveying it was a way of life not only to read back numbers, but if you saw something that did not seem right, you questioned it. I worked with some of the best if not the best old time surveyors and they made mistakes but a lot fewer with cross checks (the monument we found 13 feet out of position was an example of bad surveying)

On one we spent 20 hours of field time, rented electronic distance measuring equipment etc before the owner found that two lines that looked to be parallel actually had a 3o or 40 seconds difference, enough to throw a zark into the entire lot (big lot) we were surveying. He used the same bearing for both lines, his mistake but you can understand that two lines that would normally be parallel and aren't? No reason, weird (often lines are not but its obvious not that close, about like having a different bearing on two side lines on a house, huh? ) . I don't know how much office time he spent going over all the angles and distances and slope reductions.

Some years back we got a book on bolts from the Bowman rep. Best fasteners reference I eve came across. Lock washers had been disallowed by SAE (I think) since 1974? Something like that. Until then I thought it was critical, since then, no way. I doubt I am the only person who ever took a drive shaft apart only to fine a broken lock washer under the nut.

BMW on their cycles had the same thing happen, they put out a bulletin, from this date on, you will use no lock washers on a drive shaft, none. If you find them you will replace them with a flat washer PN XXXXXX

Ok, a bit of a run on, but I hope we all can accept a good question of practices in the spirits its intended.

Oiling machine gun cartridge as nothing more than a bad need to accommodate a crappie design.

[Robinhood]

They also operate from the open bolt design.

[RC20]

Yes, heavier crew type as opposed to various hand held.

[RC20]

So, I continue to explore the FPE condition. I continue to be in awe of the bolt design, for some reason I like its approach.

As an aside, when you come up with a Theory, its not being presented as a fact, its a possibility, an idea, an area to explore.

You then come up with ways to test that theory. Until you can consistently repeat and predict it, until then its just a possibility. Sometimes good and sometimes not.

In my world (tech, working on generators, switch gear, fire pumps, boilers, fans AC units, as well as various frequency converters (UPS, GPU, VFD), the worst thing you can do is think your assessment is fact. You take the facts, assemble a train of logic that seems to have validity for the fault and test it. It may not pan out but the test will point you in a positive direction or show you are not getting the results you thoughts and time to rethink.

With aftermarket barrels I am not experience any of the FPE (which I think is a better term Failure of Primary Extraction descries a condition with attributing a cause.


I did get a fired case stuck in the barrel that was exact symptoms of the FPE I had experienced. I will explore that further as well. I did not think to put the wedge in the baffle to see if that would get it out.
.
It lends some more evidence that its a chamber issue. Also stuck cases are over pressure signs, small chamber, rough chamber.


That said, I was coming up with larger cam throw than seems to be indicated. One suggestion was to disassemble a bolt and do a bare bolt throw check. Seems odd but will pursue that.

However, with the bolt in the gun and measuring the throw distance, I come up with .085. For those not involved in mechanical measurements and clearances , that's a huge distance. The new guns I own, have more effective throw and less babble gap that the older one. Both had the same issue (one old and one new and one it has not occurred with. It does take a fair amount of rounds (150) to get it to do that.

A thicker baffle in effect is like adding a shim albeit it not a large one (certainly not .020)

there of course is the gap on the baffle no matter how you measure it of .050. While I don't see why its there, obviously Nicholas Brewer the guy who designed it all was pretty amazing and knew what he was doing. I am not an engineer though its in my title, I am a tech. I continue to question that extraction would be weak. Others have designed extractors that are robust (as well as no extraction issues) and case heads seem to be able to take an amazing amount of abuse so designing an extraction cam that comes up short does not seem likely with someone of that capability .

Tolerance are now more than less for effective throw.

all the solutions simply reduce the free space between the baffle and the handle or receiver which gives ore extraction throw.

So it will be interesting.

In the end I may fall flat on my face, I have always learned more from my failures and equipment failures than the other way around.

It was suggest taking the firing pin out with the cocking pin and testing it. I came up with .080. Certainly well above the .035 listed. Not sure what that would prove that doing it assembled would not, same bench mark and baseline but I could have been missing something

Some more measurements and technique to get better repeatability but both methods are very close and certainly in the range of a course movement like this, even .010 should not be a factor (or if it is its a poor concept which it does not look like)

[RC20]

I just re ran an experiment. My Shilen barrel is head spaced normally, but I have other rounds fired in other 06

I found one that would go in, but would not extract.

I then added the wedge material on the far side, no extraction, I slipped it in on the cam side and out it popped out. Material was .020.

I call it a wedge because that's what I call when you slip something under a lever to get more throw out of it. Scotch is another term.

May not be mechanically or technically correct.

What that tells me is that fail to extract problem is due to stuck cases in the chamber not the lack of extraction.

Keep adding to the lever and it may be enough to overcome the stick.

Said stick can be carbon build up (hence the chamber cleaning) a tighter chamber that the dropping of brass expansion is not letting go, too much powder and over pressure (though my loads are all on the low side for the most part and no issues with the ones on the high end)



the point being no one knows what the cause of the sticky case is, one solution is to add a permanent spacer between the baffle and the receiver and get more more overall extraction distance

[Robinhood]

but I have other rounds fired in other 06
I found one that would go in, but would not extract.
So the cause of sticky cases is brass that has not been sized correctly and is oversized to the chamber.

I then added the wedge material on the far side, no extraction, I slipped it in on the cam side and out it popped out. Material was .020.

I call it a wedge because that's what I call when you slip something under a lever to get more throw out of it. Scotch is another term.

I wonder what would have happened if you put 040 behind the baffle?

[RC20]

There seems to be a reading comprehend issue at work here.

No, I did not say that. I am saying that I can re-create a FPE identical feeling situation with brass too long.

Stuck brass of any kind looks to be a FPE. Is it all causes? probably not. Is it the only cause, probably not. Is it a significant cause, I tend to think so

Could I be wrong, yep. But then I have had a lot of people tell me that on a lot of things and I was not.

the key is your ego tied up in it like the anthropologists that defend to the death that their finding is the end all and be all or do you have an open mind?

Sticky brass can be several issues as listed. Dang, maybe those early guys were right about continental drift.
Maybe it was not such a good idea to deal with snake bite by a tourniquet on that limb causing the poison to stay there killing it?

.020 was enough to overcome the stick problem directly behind the cam ramp on the baffle. .040 unstick it twice as well? Weird

Isn't that interesting though, .020 is , just what some people use behind the baffle to deal with FPE.

So plenty of extraction there unless there is significant problem. Hmmm.

[Justin.D]

There seems to be a reading comprehend issue at work here.

No, I did not say that. I am saying that I can re-create a FPE identical feeling situation with brass too long.

Stuck brass of any kind looks to be a FPE. Is it all causes? probably not. Is it the only cause, probably not. Is it a significant cause, I tend to think so

Could I be wrong, yep. But then I have had a lot of people tell me that on a lot of things and I was not.

the key is your ego tied up in it like the anthropologists that defend to the death that their finding is the end all and be all or do you have an open mind?

Sticky brass can be several issues as listed. Dang, maybe those early guys were right about continental drift.
Maybe it was not such a good idea to deal with snake bite by a tourniquet on that limb causing the poison to stay there killing it?

.020 was enough to overcome the stick problem directly behind the cam ramp on the baffle. .040 unstick it twice as well? Weird

Isn't that interesting though, .020 is , just what some people use behind the baffle to deal with FPE.

So plenty of extraction there unless there is significant problem. Hmmm.

Kinda rude out of no where to someone that is trying to help you, and I would venture to say that it is less of a "reading comprehend issue" and more of a lack of clarity in the riddles containing the information he has to go off of. Just my 2 cents.

[Robinhood]

My point about the shim RC was that I work with shim stock on a daily basis. .020 of any material does not bend and conform to sharp angles and shapes without some serious force. In my opinion when you placed the shim between the ramps, It worked better due to ta false effect of the shim not following the shape of the rear baffle. I'm sorry but from a mechanical perspective the opinions being expressed here are not indicative of common mechanical understanding. Not to say that anyone is dumb, quite the contrary. Just lacking in mechanical knowledge.

About PE, there is no reason to have PE if brass never gets stuck. Much of what you say is true about other factors being involved in some instances. There are many things people can do to a chamber that can cause cases extraction effort to be above normal. The responsibility of the gun owner is to keep sand and oil out of the chamber. It is the responsibility of the smith to get the correct finish in the bore. What is left is case design and pressures. WSM's for example will grow in the web area and will begin to make it difficult to extract after a few firings of the brass. The solution is new brass not a shim, screws or machining obviously.

Here is the kicker, If you can rotate the bolt 90* and the case does not move, Then PE is the first place to start.

It is not about me or you being being right. It is about accurate information. I could be wrong about the whole issue but If you are going to take a different position be deliberate and more precise in your argument so we can all benefit and learn.

[m12lrs]

Ive had chambers give me grief because of gunk and or slag left behind which caused extraction issues. Simple cleaning didn't solve the issue in my case. I had to use a small amount of fine lapping compound along with polishing of the chamber after lapping.


Try this next time

[RC20]

Kinda rude out of no where to someone that is trying to help you, and I would venture to say that it is less of a "reading comprehend issue" and more of a lack of clarity in the riddles containing the information he has to go off of. Just my 2 cents.

From your standpoint I can see that.

From mine its been what they now call micro aggressions, go home little boy and take your ideas with you.

the last post I see a change of tone.


My take is an ideology has been built around the PE and there is no discussion of it, otherwise it is heresy, burn him at the stake.
It may not be deliberate but again that is my take.


I have been told I hi-jacked another OP and should not be commenting?
I disagree but returned to an original post I did on this.

Per the post above, my information is accurate, how I got it.

Robinhood presented a procedure that was supposed to answer it all. While more involved it just confirmed the data the way I had done it.

I saw him chastise a poster for not being clear on what type of shooting the OP was going to do, when in fact the poster had clearly listed that he was target shooting.

So yes I say comprehension, and I have gotten a bit sarcastic.

Maybe this can go forward on a more upfront basis.

This really is supposed to be about helping people with an issue.

[Robinhood]

I'm not your friend and I am not your brother says you. I hurt your feelings, I assume because I didn't acknowledge your Idea as the correct one I assume.

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. Please look at this from my and many others standpoint. We both spent a lot of time with our arguments. In the end it still boiled down to you sticking a piece of .020 shim stock in the wrong place rather than trying .040 in the right place to ultimately proving if you stick a blown out 06 case in your chamber, PE will pull it out, not polishing the chamber. LOL, You still got it done with primary extraction. It is that simple.

Again. I'm sorry if the truth hurt your feelings.

[Robinhood]

ouch :peace:

[RC20]

I brought home the dial indicator to see if I could get a better measurements.

Something around .050 to .055. for the cam throw, Still working on better precision.

That would be down from the previous attempts which put it at .080.

[BillPa]

Still working on better precision.

If you want better precision rip a page out of Sharpshooter's playbook. With the barrel removed take two measurements from the receiver ring to the bolt face, one with the bolt locked to battery and a second with the bolt unlocked pushed fully forward. The difference between the two is the available PE for that action and it's parts.

What it won't tell you is at what point in the bolt rotation the PE engages/disengages however if you use an indicator (dial or digital) to make the above measurements you can also determine at what point in the rotation it engages/disengages plus it's total length.

If you can't or don't feel like removing a barrel then the only other options are trying different parts or somehow changing the relationship between the bolt handle, baffle and the bridge, the reason I came up with his idea or my version of a "Band-Aid". Yes, I'm retired, old and lazy! :p
http://oi65.tinypic.com/2dhuyqb.jpg

By drilling-tapping two blind holes for two 6-32/8-32 set screws so I can change the PE on the fly with only an allen wrench and without having to take anything apart but once. After determining the amount(s) of there protrusion a drop of 242 keeps them in their settings. If in the event any parts are changed they can be easily readjusted or eliminated all together.

At the moment there are six actions, two of my own using that mod with 100% success. It may not be the good, better or best option but it works.

Bill

[RC20]

BillPa: First nothing wrong with a quick fix, easiest for most people, I both like to understand the actual cause of the failure and maybe as much or more so, if its a design/production/tolerance issue why has it not been fixed?

Even easier (at least to try) is to make sure the chamber is clean, little time taken, can always bring the wedge with you to pop open while testing (I keep a small brass rod around for that sort of thing.

If you will pardon a pun, I just find it baffling as well as the oddity of it occurring with Savage barrel and not new one (so far)

Again its a theory, but exploring that, it would seem to be a sticky chamber issue (with any of the possible reasons)

And while not scientific as being true, getting a piece of brass fired in another barrel (longer head space) had it stuck with the identical feel of the ones I had stick.

The .020 piece between the baffle and receiver popped it loose just as reported by others (I know that varies, but that is what I had and it worked)



As note in a pervious post, the new Baffle being thicker (at least on my two) goes a small ways toward your solution.

The cam had a bit more rise to it as well.

Next time I have a barrel off I will try it Sharhooters way. What I ran into on the dial indicator was that once the bolt was open it would move back more as no longer forced to be forward.

I had to play with it to get a stable reading. In this case a thumb on the back of the bolt should hold it steady.

Do the set screws gouge the back of your receiver at all?

[jsund3]

Hi Bill, I'm going to try your fix tomorrow. I was gonna try the epoxy/shim but your fix it much simpler. I'll let you know how it works out. Thanks. John