MAJOR Savage 11 6.5 Creedmoor Problem: HELP NEEDED

[Robinhood]

If you have ten plus barrels to learn how to lap, and I don't know what issue your having that lapping would fix, then you might just get the chamber fixed or throated.

[Hector]

Say what?? Did you read the entire thread?

[Robinhood]

I have read the OP's issue. The whole first page discusses what md7989 (http://www.savageshooters.com/member.php?40561-md7989) was asking about. You entered the conversation at post 19.


Say what?? Did you read the entire thread?



Instead of the hand lapping, would the "Tubbs Final Finish" bore polishing bullets work also?

I read this and was wondering how that equated to the issue of the bullet rubbing on the lands and what would Tubbs do for you. I offered an opinion on hand lapping and an opinion on using Tubbs lapping bullets. Tubbs will not fix the issue being discussed in my opinion. You may have a lot more experience than I have though.

I'm thinking that another option is to start your own post to avoid hijacking the thread.

[md7989]

I have read the OP's issue. The whole first page discusses what md7989 (http://www.savageshooters.com/member.php?40561-md7989) was asking about. You entered the conversation at post 19.






I read this and was wondering how that equated to the issue of the bullet rubbing on the lands and what would Tubbs do for you. I offered an opinion on hand lapping and an opinion on using Tubbs lapping bullets. Tubbs will not fix the issue being discussed in my opinion. You may have a lot more experience than I have though.

I'm thinking that another option is to start your own post to avoid hijacking the thread.

To be more exact, I don't think my bullets are not touching the lands. I never get and "rifling marks" on the bullets...the throat area before the lands is too tight and it rubs around the ogive area back to right before the case starts on some bullets.

It's at the gunsmith still and I'm actually getting a little annoyed about it. A simple 20 min job that I clearly wrote out on a note what I wanted done, yet he still hasn't done it. The smith is a good friend of a good friend from where I work. So it sucks getting info from the middle man so-to-speak. It's also annoying when I asked my middle man if he had a status on it the other day that the smith told him he hadn't found anything out of the normal on it yet...which tells me 1) he hasn't even looked at it yet or 2) he didn't even read the notes I wrote down or the printout of the thread where the guy detailed how he fixed his issue

[Hector]

I have read the OP's issue. The whole first page discusses what md7989 (http://www.savageshooters.com/member.php?40561-md7989) was asking about. You entered the conversation at post 19.

I read this and was wondering how that equated to the issue of the bullet rubbing on the lands and what would Tubbs do for you. I offered an opinion on hand lapping and an opinion on using Tubbs lapping bullets. Tubbs will not fix the issue being discussed in my opinion. You may have a lot more experience than I have though.

I'm thinking that another option is to start your own post to avoid hijacking the thread.

First of all, I don't understand how you can equate my question to thread hijacking. md7989 had responded with a quote in post 18, to post 17, from RMGunner who included a link, which I also read, pertaining to an under sized throat problem that he had and md7989 believes he has also. My question in post 19 was referring to how RMGunner in his link resolved his tight throat problem with hand lapping and would the Tubbs work with the same results.

I assumed that someone else besides md7989 and my self read the attched link from RMGunner... I guess I was wrong. Post 24 should help you understand.
Sorry for the confusion.

[md7989]

First of all, I don't understand how you can equate my question to thread hijacking. md7989 had responded with a quote in post 18, to post 17, from RMGunner who included a link, which I also read, pertaining to an under sized throat problem that he had and md7989 believes he has also. My question in post 19 was referring to how RMGunner in his link resolved his tight throat problem with hand lapping and would the Tubbs work with the same results.

I assumed that someone else besides md7989 and my self read the attched link from RMGunner... I guess I was wrong. Post 24 should help you understand.
Sorry for the confusion.

To get to your point: I would not venture to say that it is impossible and would not work as you are describing, but it'd likely take longer to achieve the same results. I'm also unsure of how forcing a potentially oversized bullet diameter (in relation to the undersized throat) would allow the "lapping compound" on the Tubbs bullets to really work as it seems the really do their work once they're fired. Again, I honestly don't have any background knowledge/use on the Tubbs lapping bullets so maybe someone else can help you with that. Maybe you can start a thread and ask those specifics there to get better responses?

And I'm still waiting to get my gun back :(

[Hector]

My intention is to fire the bullets and let them do the lapping. The kit comes with fifty bullets, five different grits, ten each and range from #1 being the coarsest to #5 being the finest. I'm thinking of using a couple in the #4 and 5 range.

You say you are still waiting on your gun? That's the why I'm going this route.

[Robinhood]

Hector, I am interested in the results. If you solve the problem with Tubbs Final Finish, I'm sure they will be selling many of them. If not then at least after your smith fixes it then you will have a smoother bore.

[devildogandboy]

md7989, you state you're using factory ammo? from the pics they look like reloads, if so maybe over-crimp slightly bulging case just behind the shoulder area? just asking.

Bruce

[eddiesindian]

Interesting.
have you mic,ed one of the pills?

[m12lrs]

Man, that is weird. I dont see any major machining issues. I could see a chip getting embedded and then getting torn out during firing that would cause scratching and issues feeding. Thats a long shot though. Its really pretty hard to tell just by the pictures.

Im kind of like you...im really reluctant to take it to anybody and ill spend good money figuring it out myself before I do. Its a win win either way since I end up with new tools! But at this point, consider it. If you dont want to, then get a 6.5 CM reamer, and hand ream that chamber. I dont mean push it into the shoulder, I just mean do it until that reamer hits the shoulder and dont go any further or youll mess up your headspace. The point is to ream whatever it is in the throat back out. Good luck!

I am with you. You can rent a finish reamer and clean that.chamber up easily. It.will tell you very quickly if the chambering was done with a worn out reamer and it is tight in the throat.

[md7989]

My intention is to fire the bullets and let them do the lapping. The kit comes with fifty bullets, five different grits, ten each and range from #1 being the coarsest to #5 being the finest. I'm thinking of using a couple in the #4 and 5 range.

You say you are still waiting on your gun? That's the why I'm going this route.

Sounds like it is plausible and may work. I'm wondering though if these will have less effect right there in the throat area compared to farther down the barrel? I think (could be wrong) their main intention is barrel lapping and not throat lapping. So while it may work, my bet is that it'll take considering more shots of them to fix a throat and then do you risk "over lapping" the barrel?

A comparison would seem to be taking a drill bit and turning it at 2 rpm or 200 rpm...the 200 rpm bit is going to remove more than the 2 rpm one as the bullet right at the throat would be much slower and spinning less (if at all) compared to down the barrel.

And the gunsmith has finished the work and I will get it back this Friday. Just some slight polishing to the throat area


md7989, you state you're using factory ammo? from the pics they look like reloads, if so maybe over-crimp slightly bulging case just behind the shoulder area? just asking.

Bruce

Not sure how it looks like a reload considering it's factory Hornady 120 gr and 140 gr AMAX ammo


Interesting.
have you mic,ed one of the pills?

I'm guessing you mean to find out the diameter of the bullets themselves and how they are varying? I did and didn't really find a substantial amount of data that would prove my bullets were "oversized" in comparison to what the factory 6.5 throat specs should be. That and along with the same in the link posted earlier in this thread where the gentleman fixed his own issue led me to believe it was a tight throat.

The gunsmith confirmed it is now good by cycling and firing the same box of ammo (both 120 gr and 140 gr factory AMAX loads) and they didn't have any of the previous problems.

The chamber, headspace, fire formed case sizes, etc all checked out just fine...it was just a tight throat. So for $40 to get it done and getting it back sooner than sending it to Savage and knowing actual other measurements of my gun's chamber and all in the process, I feel it was worth it.

[md7989]

Got the gun back yesterday and it chambers all rounds much smoother now with no hang ups and no marring or scratching of the bullets. I will be shooting it again tomorrow. I feel like it was worth the $40 he charged me and actually getting it back faster than shipping it off to Savage and getting some data on my gun

[bearcatrp]

I took the long road and sent my 10T 6.5cm back to savage due to poor accuracy. Not an issue like yours but a new rifle shouldn't shoot poorly. Have the same rifle in 308 and its a tac driver from the 1st shot. Glad you have it figured out. Am assuming this was a savage error when built?

Went back and re read your 1st post as your measurement caught my eye. Maybe I am missing something or your measuring different but when I measured my chamber for the 140 ELD-M, I came up with 2.860 to the lands. I measured the commercial 140 ELD-M which came up with 2.812. Am assuming I am measuring a different way so looking to learn how your doing your measurement. Only been reloading a couple years so always willing to learn new ways or correcting something I may be doing wrong.

[md7989]

I took the long road and sent my 10T 6.5cm back to savage due to poor accuracy. Not an issue like yours but a new rifle shouldn't shoot poorly. Have the same rifle in 308 and its a tac driver from the 1st shot. Glad you have it figured out. Am assuming this was a savage error when built?

Went back and re read your 1st post as your measurement caught my eye. Maybe I am missing something or your measuring different but when I measured my chamber for the 140 ELD-M, I came up with 2.860 to the lands. I measured the commercial 140 ELD-M which came up with 2.812. Am assuming I am measuring a different way so looking to learn how your doing your measurement. Only been reloading a couple years so always willing to learn new ways or correcting something I may be doing wrong.

I think I read about your problem of the large groups over on AR15.com (I have the same username there as well). It appears that my situation (and others as mentioned in this thread and the links provided in it) may have been reamed with a reamer that was close to the end of it's lifespan...just a theory/possibility. It shot fine, but would just have a tougher time loading some rounds.

As for the measurements, this is what I did/used:

I took the Hornady overall length gauge, Hornady 6.5 CM modified case and a 140 gr Hornady AMAX bullet from a fresh pack of 100 I opened. I used this to lightly wedge the bullet into the lands to find my max overall length (I had a wooden dowel in the barrel from the muzzle end and pushed the bullet back and forth with it to make sure I engaged the lands.

If I am assuming correctly (we know what that can do haha) the difference in our measurements are coming from me using a bullet comparator to measure off the ogive of the bullet rather than the overall length from case head to tip of the bullet. That is where my 2.2155" measurement came from. Now if I measure from case head to tip for an overall length, I get similar numbers as you list in the 2.82"+ range. The bullet comparator gives more accurate readings off the ogive considering the differences in variations of overall individual bullet lengths and tips from lot to lot

Let me know if that's how you were measuring: with a bullet comparator off the ogive, or just using the tip of the bullet and end of the case/case head. I'm pretty sure it's using the tip as a 6.5 creedmoor with a chamber measuring 2.8+" using the ogive would be CRAZYYYYYY haha

[bearcatrp]

I use a dowel to measure. Take 3 readings. I make sure the bullet is in all the way to the ogive. Then measure to the closed bolt. Has worked well for my 50 BMG, 308 and now the 6.5cm. Haven't started reloading for the creedmoor yet as I am building up brass from commercial ammo. Can't find just brass. I use lapua brass for load development for the 308, the switch to hornady brass for the load I choose to stick with. Expensive but works great. Wish I could find lapua brass for the creedmoor. Not sure if they make it. Thanks for explaining. Whats the modified case?

[md7989]

I use a dowel to measure. Take 3 readings. I make sure the bullet is in all the way to the ogive. Then measure to the closed bolt. Has worked well for my 50 BMG, 308 and now the 6.5cm. Haven't started reloading for the creedmoor yet as I am building up brass from commercial ammo. Can't find just brass. I use lapua brass for load development for the 308, the switch to hornady brass for the load I choose to stick with. Expensive but works great. Wish I could find lapua brass for the creedmoor. Not sure if they make it. Thanks for explaining. Whats the modified case?

The modified case is a full length resized/trimmed case that has the primer pocket drilled out and threaded in that area. It threads onto the Hornady overall length gauge and you can slide the rod through the primer pocket to allow you to push the bullet forward to find the lands and then lock it down with the set screw. Check out YouTube for some good videos on it

[bearcatrp]

Thanks. Have seen the kits. Looked into it but the dowel works good. Cheaper too.

[Hector]

Sounds like it is plausible and may work. I'm wondering though if these will have less effect right there in the throat area compared to farther down the barrel? I think (could be wrong) their main intention is barrel lapping and not throat lapping. So while it may work, my bet is that it'll take considering more shots of them to fix a throat and then do you risk "over lapping" the barrel?

Looks like you are right on this. I have fired twenty of the of the lapping bullets using the first two coarsest grits and the ring is still there. I can seat a little deeper now but still can not touch the lands.

[Robinhood]

Hector was this the outcome you were after?