Newbie: Blued or Stainless? Which makes a better barrel?

[tkarl]

First time poster here! No rifle yet. My requirements are high: Accu-stock, Accu-trigger, 6.5 Creedmoor, Left-Handed Bolt. Nothing found so far. Closest is the All Weather Savage 116 in 7mm-08. Now my question: Does Stainless Steel make as good a barrel as regular steel (blued)? I keep hearing these numbers after which the barrel wears out. Perhaps not so bad for hunting, but I want to shoot 1000 yard targets and such. I don't like the idea of having to buy a new barrel every so often. How good is the 7mm-08 compared to the 6.5mm Creedmoor for 1000-yard groups? Thoughts as to finding a rifle meeting my needs? Does the .270 have a lot of recoil?

[Dennis]

The 270 has a little kick, but not bad at all considering the results.

You either need to build a LR rifle, or a hunting rifle. With a 308, you could have both, and maybe the same with a few other calibers. A 308 is not a good choice for 1k yards.

Stainless is definitely better, hunting definitely get a matte barrel. A 6.5x47 is a great LR rifle. I would get this (in fact I personally have 2) before the 2 you mentioned above. Don't rule out a 260.

If you start Target Shooting & hunting with the same rifle, expect to replace barrels anywhere from 800 to 3,000 rounds down the tube. They do wear out. 3,000 rounds down the tube equates to less than 2 seconds of barrel use. Every bullet stays in the bore a fraction of a second, just a factoid to mention.

[darkker]

1) Does Stainless Steel make as good a barrel as regular steel (blued)? I keep hearing these numbers after which the barrel wears out. Perhaps not so bad for hunting, but I want to shoot 1000 yard targets and such.
I don't like the idea of having to buy a new barrel every so often.
2) How good is the 7mm-08 compared to the 6.5mm Creedmoor for 1000-yard groups?
3) Thoughts as to finding a rifle meeting my needs?
4) Does the .270 have a lot of recoil?

1 - Not for nothing, but you will wear out a barrel by over-cleaning long before you shoot one out. Despite everyone having a notion, I've NEVER seen any data where there was actual specific controls as far as specs, that pitted barrels side X side. GENERALLY speaking, stainless will work-harden more easily, thus with traditional jacketed bullets; will wear longer. So let's be realistic, are you actually going to shoot? I have an original 10FP in 308. That barrel still gets shot beyond 1K, and has over 4,000 rounds fired. That will take the average "long range enthusiast" the better part of their life.
2 - That has no answer. A crap barrel Vs. Good barrel will radically shift groups. Did you mean ballistically speaking?
3 - Don't shop for south-paw rifles, Best of luck to you.
4 - Grab any online calculator to see the numbers, but that is a subjective question. A Younger brother hated my 308 for recoil, but happily shoots a factory sporter 338 WM.

[TonyBen]

If you shoot a lot, you will burn out a barrel. That's just the nature of the beast. I like the 308 and 30-06 for the fact that you can get some great longevity out of the barrels. A good 308 barrel should last about 5,000 rounds before you lose match accuracy. After that, you should be good for another couple of thousand rounds with decent hunting accuracy. A good 308 or 30-06 should get you out to at least 600yds without having to resort to the high pressure loads that eat up the throat. With a little more effort, you can develop a load that will get you out to 1,000.

The .270 and 7mm-08 are a little more harsh on the throat than the 308/30-06, but not by much. Once you start using rounds like the 6.5, 300win mag, 7mm mag, then the barrel life is greatly reduced.

If you had to buy off the shelf match ammo to wear out a 308 barrel, you'd spend at least $5,000 on ammo before you lose match accuracy and you'd spend another $3,000 before you had to replace it out right. A new barrel costs about $300.

Chrome-moly barrels are supposed to shoot better than stainless steel, but not many people can shoot that good. And if you're asking the question, I'd say you're not shooting to that level yet.

And I don't consider an Accu-stock or an Accu-trigger a high standard. They get the job done, but I don't many consider them a high standard.

I'd say go with the 7mm-08 and see where it takes you. You can always re-barrel after you have more experience and you have a better idea of what you want.

Tony.

[tkarl]

The 270 has a little kick, but not bad at all considering the results.

You either need to build a LR rifle, or a hunting rifle. With a 308, you could have both, and maybe the same with a few other calibers. A 308 is not a good choice for 1k yards.

Stainless is definitely better, hunting definitely get a matte barrel. A 6.5x47 is a great LR rifle. I would get this (in fact I personally have 2) before the 2 you mentioned above. Don't rule out a 260.

If you start Target Shooting & hunting with the same rifle, expect to replace barrels anywhere from 800 to 3,000 rounds down the tube. They do wear out. 3,000 rounds down the tube equates to less than 2 seconds of barrel use. Every bullet stays in the bore a fraction of a second, just a factoid to mention.
Thanks for the Reply! Just to be clear, I will not be doing any hunting with the LR rifle. If I get the land I want, then perhaps some use on eliminating predators, but primarily, almost 100%, on LR target shooting.

How does 7mm-08 do at 1K yards?

[tkarl]

1 - Not for nothing, but you will wear out a barrel by over-cleaning long before you shoot one out. Despite everyone having a notion, I've NEVER seen any data where there was actual specific controls as far as specs, that pitted barrels side X side. GENERALLY speaking, stainless will work-harden more easily, thus with traditional jacketed bullets; will wear longer. So let's be realistic, are you actually going to shoot? I have an original 10FP in 308. That barrel still gets shot beyond 1K, and has over 4,000 rounds fired. That will take the average "long range enthusiast" the better part of their life.
2 - That has no answer. A crap barrel Vs. Good barrel will radically shift groups. Did you mean ballistically speaking?
3 - Don't shop for south-paw rifles, Best of luck to you.
4 - Grab any online calculator to see the numbers, but that is a subjective question. A Younger brother hated my 308 for recoil, but happily shoots a factory sporter 338 WM.
Great Reply, thanks
Reply to "2)": I was looking for any obvious caliber-leanings -- as the research I've done on-line is so puffed up with 6.5mm Creedmoor, that I can't find any information on how well 7mm-08 will group at 1000 yards. How can I tell a 'crap' barrel from a good one?
Reply to "3)": I suppose I could just put up with a RH bolt action shooting left-handed, or just shoot RH-ed. LH-bolt still preferred because I'm left-eyed & left handed.

Any suggestions for Ballistics information? I will be reloading.

[tkarl]

And I don't consider an Accu-stock or an Accu-trigger a high standard. They get the job done, but I don't many consider them a high standard.

I'd say go with the 7mm-08 and see where it takes you. You can always re-barrel after you have more experience and you have a better idea of what you want.

Tony.
Thanks for the great reply!
As my first LR rifle, I thought to go with both Accu- stock & trigger to get me shooting faster -- rather than buying an Axis and rebedding & re-buying a new stock to a new gun -- and perhaps trying to avoid having another 'project' to complete before I can do any shooting

I kind of like the idea of the 7mm-08. It's available, it's CLOSE to the 6.5 Creed in size (as well as close to the .308), but perhaps not as fast in wearing out the barrel as the 6.5mm?

[tkarl]

No one mentioned a heavier 'Target' barrel as opposed to the lighter 'Sporter' barrel on the Savage 116. Do you just wait a bit for the thinner barrel to cool down?

[Texas10]

The gun you're looking for will be an unusual find, mostly because "lefties" get left out in the cold by gun manufactures on many models however, if you log onto the Savage website and browse the models, you may find a model close to what you're looking for. Then it is only a matter of calling the Savage Custom shop and have your gun made to your requirements.

You can even get a target action with target trigger and a left bolt, right eject for easy target shooting, in the caliper you want, probably in the stock you want too.

A guy at the range last month had a new Savage custom build in 6.5 CM that shot overlapping holes at 100 yds……brand new gun right out of the box…….. and he paid about $700 for it, less than I paid for my bone stock model 12 BVSS.

So don't settle for something less than exactly what you want……JUST ORDER IT.

[JASmith]

How competitive do you want to be for 1,000 yards?

Several cartridges will make the experience more fun than the 7mm and 30 calibers.

There are folks who can get sub-moa groups at 1,000 yards with the 6.5 Grendel in 18" barrels on ARs and experience about the same recoil one sees with a 243 Win rifle of the same weight. The Creedmoor will do better as the winds pick up at the expense of more recoil and weight. The 6.5x55 gives about the same performance as the Creedmoor and 260 Remington. Going to larger cases in the 6.5 caliber will help with wind drift but the long barrel, heavy rifles needed to take advantage of the larger case for serious target shooting make them less than fun for hunting.

The 6mm cartridges also can do well with 100+ grain bullets at extended ranges.

In the end, one can have a very effective hunting rifle that also does well for casual or semi-competitive long range target shooting. If one is serious about being highly competitive at the longer ranges, then a purpose-built rifle is advised.

[MI223]

I say get the 7mm08... shoot if for a while, try to learn what you need to be successful for the style of shooting you will be doing. My guess is that no matter what factory rifle you buy, you will be bolting it up to a new stock and spinning on a new barrel in what ever round you choose just like the rest of us. I think the 708 will do what you need until you get to that point.
This is just my opinion and it is probably a good thing it is free.lol

[DrThunder88]

There isn't a lot of factory match ammo for 7mm-08, whereas 6.5 Creed has a number of different match loads. If you're into reloading, that's no big deal, but something to consider otherwise.

[justinp61]

This right handed, available in 260 Remington and 6.5 CM.

http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/12LRP/

[pdq5oh]

I looked at an LRP before buying a Predator Max 1 in 260. With the Accustock it shot very well with my handloads. I shot 1000 yd steel with it and had good success. I've since put it in an MDT chassis. After some playing around I've finally gotten it shooting very well. Barreled action is stock. I much prefer the barrel profile of the Max 1 to the LRP. To me the LRP felt like a terribly heavy club.
As to caliber for what you want the 260 and Creedmoore are too similar to separate. Both will smoke a 308 past 600 yds. I got the 260 because I could get Lapua brass and never intended to shoot factory ammo. The 6.5 Grendel was mentioned. I have one of those and it's a ball to shoot. Automatic to 800. Beyond that the wind calls are more critical.

[Benmuncie]

There is a 260 for sale in the classifieds section right now if that is a caliber you are considering. The owner sent me a pic of the rifle and I'm sure he would send it to you too. http://www.savageshooters.com/showthread.php?50546-Savage-model-11-260

[jim_k]

7-08 is almost exactly comparable to 6.5 Creedmoor at 1,000 yds. If you load the best Berger in each, and to max pressure per QL, the wind drift per mph of crosswind at 1,000 yards for both is 6.5". I would go with 7-08, if you will ever hunt with it. I think cost of cases will be lower for 7-08, but cost of bullets might be slightly higher. Good hunting bullets are available for both in 140 grain (lead-tipped boat-tails). At matches, you will see more 6.5 Creedmoor, and most of the 7mm rifles at matches will be like .284 Win (also a great overall choice) or .284 Shehane, etc., since those can outperform the 6.5 Creedmoor at 1,000 yards. The bolt size for both is the same, so you can safely buy any good Savage, replace the barrel, and buy the stock of your choice. You can buy both those barrels you're considering, and shoot 'em til they melt. AccuTrigger is plenty good, unless you just want to spend more money, or you're dead set on a particular "feel". Trigger choice is often a very personal thing.
Almost all target rifles are stainless steel. Can't tell you any good reason for that. No bores are blued, only exterior.

[JASmith]

The heavier bullets needed to get competitive ballistic coefficients in 7 mm mean that there is more recoil to deal with than is the case with the 6.5 Creedmoor.

Regarding hunting, there is an excellent history of effective use of 6.5 caliber cartridges in the Creedmoor class for harvesting moose. This may seem a surprise to some, but the statistics are there.

For more, see the Ideal Bullet Weight (http://shootersnotes.com/ideal-bullet-weight/) discussion. While it does not treat any particular caliber in particular, the importance of bullet weight in general performance of hunting bullets is established.

[pdq5oh]

JASmith is right. If you want to target shoot with this rifle, any 6.5 will be more pleasant to shoot. I can shoot my 260 till I'm out of ammo without recoil becoming an issue. To get similar ballistics with a 7mm you'll need heavier bullets, pushed by more powder = more recoil. Barrel life on the 260 or Creedmoore is very good. I'd say not so much with a 7mm. More powder pushing heavier bullets will be harder on the throat. There's a good reason the top shooters are shooting 6.5s & 6mms in the long range sniper matches. Very good ballistics, with very little recoil. Trust me, shooting a rifle with heavy recoil will wear you out and have you flinching before you know it.