Copper Solvent

[DeadEyeDeadly]

All of the bore cleaning products that I purchased locally were not doing much to remove the copper fouling in my custom made 204 Ruger Savage Heavy Varmint rifle that I built, and the size of my groups had become unacceptable. I've finally found a copper remover that works – KG 12 Copper Solvent, which I ordered from MidwayUSA after reading many reviews.


Here are three of the tightest groups out of eight that I shot after using the KG 12. I was using new (never fired) Nosler cases, and the wind was gusting to 15 MPH.


Side note: I also tried Nosler cases for my 6.5 Creedmoor, and found that the majority of the primer pockets were loose after being fired once. Hopefully, these 204 Ruger Nosler cases won't suffer that problem when reloaded. Anyone else having problems with Nosler cases?




http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag260/BLAZELSBraz/V32P42_zpsdzkisyon.jpg




http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag260/BLAZELSBraz/S32P37_zpszjmzninc.jpg




http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag260/BLAZELSBraz/S32P36_zpsdvpbobdk.jpg

[darkker]

Nice shooting.
KG-12 is nice, so is Wipe-out, or if you don't want a second mortgage so is janitors 10% ammonia from Ace.

As to your case question, we need a lot more info; but given your posted pics, have a pretty good idea.

Your targets show 28.7gr loads. That is a book max load. Without knowing your velocity parody from starting, you are most likely over Pressure. So if you load the Creedmoor the same way, or load as is popular on the Creedmoor board; you are well over Pressure.
So is the brass soft, or are you overloading it?

Book data NEVER list lot numbers tested, factory rifles are "looser" than SAAMI minimum spec test equipment. So you will never run the same velocity, charge for charge. And not knowing the burning rate that was tested, versus what you have.... Watch your velocity. When you either:
Catch-up to book velocities, OR exceed book velocities; you have also exceeded book Pressure.
"Signs" of Pressure typically happen North of 70-75,000 psi.

[DeadEyeDeadly]

The 6.5 Creedmoor load I used was 44.2 grains of IMR 4451 behind a 120 Grain Sierra bullet. Hogdon reloading data lists a max load for that bullet as 44.7 grains of 4451 at a pressure of 61,400 PSI.



I have used that same load in Hornady cases, and after reloading them upwards of 5 times, have never experienced any loose pockets. Also, the primers never showed any signs of excess pressure. The Nosler cases didn't show any primer pressure signs either, in both the 204 and 6.5.


I have yet to reload the 204 Ruger cases. The reason I asked the question was to find out if others had similar problems, possibly due to soft cases or oversized pockets in new cases.

[darkker]

I wasn't clear enough, or you missed the greater point I was attempting to make.

Originally pressure measurement was done with Lead Crushers. Pressures began to rise, and it was discovered that they were no longer accurate; so the industry moved to Copper Crushers. Again the same thing was found. When you move above north of approx 45,000 psi, It is well known that Very accurately calibrated copper crushers tested by professional techs, in SAAMI minimum spec test equipment, using the exact same carefully controlled reference lot of powder; will "show" pressure swings on the order of 12-16,000 psi. That is why the industry moved to Strain, or piezo-electric measuring devices.
So, the average joe, who uses a mass produced rifle with varying chamber/barrel dimensions, with cases and primers with an unknown alloy, with an unknown hardness spec, shooting a 60,000 psi cartridge, from blended canister grade powder; isn't magically more accurate at judging what pressures he is actually running, simply by staring at the cases/primers.

In the WWII era, Olin made 30-06 cases out of Alloy C260. They DID publish cartridge specs back then, that alloy was spec'd to have a tensile strength of 75-80,000 psi. What that means is that you would "notice" case growth, or extraction issues about the time you reached it's tensile strength. "signs" are better than nothing, but absolutely nothing more than that. Velocity is how you know reasonably well where your burning rate and pressure is.

Until book data lists the lot numbers of components and dates tested, the important info you get is the velocity. In the newest Norma manual there is a wonderful article on how storage of powder(even sealed containers) can have a noticeable amount of moisture change in storage; and the subsequent major changes in burning rates due to that. So assuming that you have an identical burning rate, and thus build the same pressure as the book, isn't a safe bet.

I should be home early enough this evening to post some of my Pressure Trace results showing these issues. One was a 308 using "middle of the range" powder charges, but with a different bullet. Those 5-shots sounded, felt, extracted like a normal mild load. The Trace however showed that with the change in bullet construction, was causing the powder to "run-away" and had some very nasty secondary ignitions.
The other was testing done in the Creedmoor with 140gr CC's and Target Hybrids. The lot of Superformance we were testing was different from the Hornady data by 9%!! That is a far cry from 0.5gr split that you are using.

As this comes back to your question: Is the brass soft? maybe. Are you running higher pressure than book data? maybe. Without knowing that, or what the brass is spec'd to handle; you really can't get a real answer.

[darkker]

2 cases, the one on the right is the worse one from the secondary ignitions. Left case is from a trace with low pressure. "Signs" would suggest otherwise...
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j84/Darkker13/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150731_194234_zpsj7wyleqv.jpg (http://s78.photobucket.com/user/Darkker13/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150731_194234_zpsj7wyleqv.jpg.html)

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j84/Darkker13/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2015-01-31-15-00-18_zpsmopqcu83.png (http://s78.photobucket.com/user/Darkker13/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2015-01-31-15-00-18_zpsmopqcu83.png.html)

[DeadEyeDeadly]

What I surmise from the info that you have provided, is that determining high pressure loads is a crap shoot without sophisticated diagnostic test equipment. I checked my data base and found that I had chronographed the 6.5 Creedmoor load in question. Perhaps you can make an educated guess as to what pressure I might be running? Here are the specifics:

Rifle – Savage Target Action, McGowen 28 “ SS Heavy Barrel (Douglas # 9 Contour)
Case – Nosler
Primer – WLR
Bullet – 120 gr Sierra MatchKing HPBT
Powder – IMR 4451: 44.2 grs.
Velocity – 3102 fps

Thanks for the input!

[darkker]

I'm not sure if that is a progressive powder or not, that REALLY throws a monkey wrench into things... The fact that there is relatively little split, makes me suspect it could be. Progressives are a whole different ball of wax, as their burning curve changes rather dramatically with operating pressure, whereas the velocity doesn't much; at least not like a conventional powder.
The Creedmoor is much like the 308, in that barrel length really doesn't matter as much as many wish it would.
For a reference, read here:
http://rifleshooter.com/2016/02/6-5-creedmoor-effect-of-barrel-length-on-velocity-cutting-up-a-creedmoor/

Really would need some PT data for that powder, but it is currently in Az.
For a W.A.G. that is based upon that being a linear burn, puts you in the 65-68,000 psi range.

[SNORTHRUP1]

Those are some really good groups. I always had good luck with Barnes CR-10, haven't tried Shooters Choice copper solvent to see how it works for me.

[Robinhood]

Ultimately if you don't have a pressure trace to prove your load you are probably over pressure due to one of several potential factors. Too much powder, Not using the same chamber and lot # the book publisher uses, too little powder and secondary ignition etc... etc.... We are waiting on your reloading book Daarker, Haha just pulling your chain.

Many people push their cartridges too hard. Does anyone have any data on the number of people who blow their guns up by using someone else’s load or loading above Book Maximum?

Wipe Out, Bore Tech, Witches Brew Copper Remover, all good stuff