how accurate should a .223 LRPV be at 400 yards?

[King Ghidora]

I just wondered what the upper limit for accuracy is with this gun. Yes I do have one and it seems to shoot very well but I'm a newbie when it comes to shooting that distance. I shot a 5 inch group at 400 yards and I wondered if that was close to the limit or if it will be able to do even better. I'm not complaining. I'm very impressed with this rifle. I'm not new to shooting by any means but most of my shooting has been done with rimfires with some centerfires mixed in. To be honest I never expected to be able to shoot this well with no more practice than I've had. This rifle is very impressive to this newbie.

[Balljoint]

I'm not an expert, need more info on what you are shooting such as factory load or hand load if hand load need bullet size, power load, twist rate of barrel, length of barrel, is rifle a bolt gun or semi auto.

[Peter_Kirch]

i'd say that's not too shabby. Are you using reloads? Also was it windy out the day you shot a 5" group?

[King Ghidora]

There was about a 5 mph wind at most. It was late in the evening and we always get a calm period at that time of day here. The wind did pick up to about 10 mph and my group got a little wider. I never got past about 8" though. I was using factory Winchester 55 gr. ammo. From the shooting I've done this rifle seems to shoot everything well except Wolf. But I haven't had enough time to figure out what is actually the best. This was only the 4th time shooting it at distance. The first time I had to zero the scope without a spotter. The second time I shot pretty well hitting a gallon jug pretty often. The third time I had about a 20 mph wind and my shots were all over the place.

Balljoint you can see the rifle I was using on this web page (http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/12LRPV+LEFT+PORT). It has a 1 in 9 twist but it doesn't have the fluted barrel. It's a couple of years older model.

[Galveston22]

5 inch group at 400 yards is ~ 1.25 MOA which would roughly equate to a 1.25" group at 100y, so there is room for improvement. With handloads, good glass, and trigger time you can expect that the rifle is capable of around 2.25" - 2.5" groups at 400y with good conditions.

[kschilling]

With "standard" factory loads, that's about what you'll get. But, if you find one of those factory loads that shoots well - it might hold together for you. If you don't understand how to read the conditions at the 400, 500, etc yard line, it won't make any difference. Your bullet componets are going to be instrumental at that distance.... ie. BT, FB, etc. The .223 is very accurate and can be pushed hard depending on what type of platform you're shooting it from. I'm very impressed with mine and intend to keep it around. I use it to teach new shooters how to shoot longer ranges. Very forgiving.

[bodywerks]

That's the best you're gonna get with crap ammo. You need match ammo or handloads to do any better - and possibly MUCH better. You need to launch heavier pills to get out there with even better accuracy as well. I like the 69SMK's.
If you can find it, get a box of Buffalo Bore match ammo with the Sierra 69smk's. My 1:9 savage LOVES them. If you can't find that, go with federal or Black Hills match ammo with the 69SMK's. That rifle should shoot 5/8" or better at 100 yards with the right ammo and right shooter.

[5spd]

You should be able to hit a prarie dog size target with no problem with that gun & range.
It sounds like your ammo as stated above or you are twitching when you pull.

[King Ghidora]

I suspect the wind had a big role in the the spread of the ammo especially after the first group. I definitely haven't learned to play the wind for a couple of reasons. A. we don't get a lot of wind in this area most days because the hills block most of it. I don't expect to be winning any competitions at least without a longer learning process.

I don't think it was any flinching going on. Like I said before I'm not new to shooting. I'm just new to shooting long distance. I had been shooting fairly well with my MkII before I shot the 12. I shot some MOA groups at 100 yards with it.

I know I need lots more range time but it's 35 miles to the only range in the whole area that has a range that long. That's a long ride and lot of gas. I'm so used to walking out in my yard and shooting at 50 that driving 70 miles to get to shoot seems very extreme.

I'm trying to work through different ammo now. I've just started with this gun really. I was just wondering how much further I could take it.

[bodywerks]

If it's not match ammo it's crap ammo, plain and simple. You simply will not get any better groups with $8/box ammo. You need to use match ammo or handloads if you want accuracy any better than what you're getting now. And you need to take advantage of the 9" twist of your barrel - it can launch 70+ grain bullets. Lighter bullets get bucked around by the wind easier.

[King Ghidora]

Actually I've shot several different weights of bullets. From what I've seen they are all pretty similar including the Remington Premiere 69 gr. match quality ammo and the Black Hills 52 gr. match ammo I've shot. I realize there are many other choices and I have bought quite a few others that I haven't had a chance to try yet. I've bought some 75 gr. Hornady that I intend to try soon as well. Not all the ammo I've bought has been $8 a box. Some of it has been more than 3 times that amount for 20 rounds. Yes that's very expensive and more expensive than I should have paid but in reality it was part of the deal I got when I bought the gun and it wasn't really quite that expensive. Still I paid too much but I did it just so I could try that particular ammo. I knew I could get it cheaper if I found it was substantially better than other ammo.

But the fact is I've had my best luck with the Winchester so far. Admittedly I haven't had enough time to try nearly as many brands and types as I want to try. I've also had very good luck with American Eagle ammo, which is also cheap. If the match grade ammo I've bought is really substantially better I haven't noticed it yet. Maybe it was just a matter of the wind the day I shot it. I know I'm a long way from finding the right ammo for this gun. I definitely need more trigger time and even more samples of ammo to try. Still the Black Hills ammo has a good reputation but it didn't seem to shoot as well as I had hoped. But it was even lighter than the cheap ammo I've shot. Maybe I'll get some of the heavier loads soon. I bought what I found in a gun shop mainly because of the reputation of the brand.

Again I will be trying heavier loads though most people say that a 70 gr. bullet is about all a 1:9 twist can handle well. The Hornady says 1:9 is the limit for the twist rate for the 75 gr. ammo so I guess I'll see.

Still there are so many variables at that distance I don't expect to find the right combination overnight. The wind can play havoc with bullets at that distance so I'm not going to be convinced of anything for quite a while.

Again my goal here was to find out what the upper limit for accuracy might be for a .223 at that distance. I guess I want to know when I might have a winning combination when I find it. Without knowing the upper limit I may never find out. I could spend the next 5 years trying different ammo looking for something better when that just isn't ever likely to happen. I don't think it's a 5 inch group at that distance. But I don't know if 1 inch groups are possible for the best shooters or probable for a newbie like myself. I just want to know when I find a combination of ammo that will be as good as it gets for someone on my level.

Eventually I want to move up to a higher level of course. I want to go to longer distances which I assume will require heavier loads to fly straight at longer distances. Eventually I expect to move to a 1:7 barrel. I know right now my first requirement is better glass. Well what I really need is a better reticle. Everything else about my scope seems ok to me. But if you can't see what you're shooting at because the reticle is too fat it's time to get a better scope. I have read that a scope that is too powerful will cause mirage problems at distances like 400 yards which I assume is true. It's a shame I can't change just the reticle on my scope because it's limit is 18X, it has AO and the glass is clear. I guess that's why they make different models though.

[rjtfroggy]

Before you replace your scope get in touch with the maker and see if they will swap out the reticule for the style you want,if not there is a few companies that do it(need to do a search).
I also have a 1:9 actually 2 of them one is a 20" the other a 26" and to test against my reloads I use a reasonably priced match bullet from Frangible bullets.They are from International cartridge corp. and are a 55gr.Barnes bullet loaded for 2800fps.and designed for the 9 twist barrel and extended ranges,cost $19.11 per box of 20.When I tried these at 200 yards my 5 shot group was well with in a 3/4 dot and at 100 I had 6 into a 1/2" dot then I pulled one to screw it up.When I first found these they were advertised as "sniper match grade" they have since removed all of that wording,probably a liability thing.

The only place I have ever seen them for sale is at www.frangiblebullets.com shipping rates are very reasonable also,it won't hurt to try these out,I personally can't reload a more accurate load for these rifles and keep a couple of boxes for wake up calls.GOOD LUCK DON'T GIVE UP

[deadeye]

I suspect the wind had a big role in the the spread of the ammo especially after the first group.

You are precisely right. If you are testing ammo and/or gun - it must be calm.

There are plenty of free programs on the net to do the calculations.

I ran a quick example to show you using Point Blank:

55gr Barnes TSX has a BC of .209 - if you launch that at 3000fps then a 10mph cross wind will move your bullet 29 inches at 400 yards. A 5mph wind would be half that. Gusting wind and it all changes.

So, let's say you shoot 2 or 3 rounds with no wind then a gust comes up as you shoot number 3 or 4 - the wind just opened up your group by an unknown amount and unless you are aware of it, you go home shaking your head as to what you did wrong or decide the gun doesn't like that particular load.

Unless you are in a dead wind condition - all bets are off at determining the best it can do.

[King Ghidora]

I appreciate the suggestion on the ammo. I am always looking for something that shoots top notch. I'll probably give them a try soon.

I know the wind has to be calm to get a really good idea on how well a bullet is doing. Luckily I live in an area with lots of hills and as a result very little wind. I've lived in places where the wind blows constantly. I am not in one of them now. Not even close. In fact it's kinda hard to learn how to shoot in the wind because we never have any. Well we do sometimes but it's gusty wind which is very unpredictable. And it seems like every place I shoot the wind blows straight in on me making it all that much harder to figure out how to aim. I need to go to a range where the wind is constant and learn to shoot in the wind really. It isn't that far to flat land from where I live. In central Ohio the terrain is pretty flat in a lot places which allows for that constant wind. And my wife has family in Indianapolis where the wind blows constantly. I lived there a few years. It may not be like living right on the ocean but the wind coming off the plains is pretty constant.

So I don't have a lot of problems finding days when it is calm. Usually about an hour before sundown we get a period that is dead calm. That's when I do most of my shooting. It makes for good groups but I don't learn a lot about shooting in the wind that way.

[lal357]

i have the same rifle but I'm the opposite of you 100 yards max at the range i shoot at. i have found mine likes the heavier bullets 69gr smk and 75gr hornady match most groups are going in the .3 to .6 range even with the 100yard max distance the wind still play havoc with a flyer bringing .4's out to .6 groups I've gotten to read the tapes or tall grass to check wind speed and direction. reloading is a plus i have also found the my 1-9 barrel seems to like the bullets seated .01 off the lands. good bullets are a must and if ya start reloading with the savings you can load more rounds with better bullets.

[King Ghidora]

I got to shoot some more yesterday. I shot some Black Hills match ammo but it was only 52 gr.. I had a very hard time getting that to group at all. I then switched to some PMC and then some American Eagle both of which was 55 gr.. Strangely enough both shot much better than the Black Hills stuff. I have some moly coated Black Hills ammo that is essentially identical to what I shot yesterday except for the coating. I'm going to be pretty disappointed if it doesn't shoot any better because I read lots of good reviews of that ammo before I bought it.

So once again my LRPV likes cheap ammo better than expensive match grade ammo. Strange but true. I kinda hope this pattern continues because I can save money buying factory ammo. I do intend to start reloading before too long but I've been doing ok with the factory stuff.

I shot groups that were probably 8-10 inches with the PMC and the American Eagle 5.56. I know that isn't great but there was some gusting headwind today and I have to chalk up some of my problems to that. It also rained the night before so I wasn't getting much dust flying up to tell me where I was hitting as well. I did have a spotter but it was my wife and she is a newbie to that role. Still I managed to nail a 5 inch target painted on a rock often enough to smash the rock. It was sandstone about 2" thick or so and I ended up knocking down the rock both places that had paint.

I picked up the Hornady 75 gr. to try it out but I thought I would go with the PMC instead at that point. It was getting late and I had a few rounds of the PMC left and I didn't want to open a new box and not really get to see just how well it worked. I'm going to try it the next time I go. Hopefully it will fly straighter in the wind but I figure I will have considerably more drop. The ammo I've been using only seems to drop 5-8 inches at 400 yards. That's flatter than I expected and it makes me wonder if the club's claim about the distance is accurate. I know it's at least 350 yards though.