Why own a large shank action?

[Mozella]

One very good reason to own a large shank action is because if you want a Target Action, it will be large shank.

[m12lrs]

you could reverse it and ask why have any small shank actions?

[geezerhood]

Thanks all for your input.

For me, there is no question that I would want to continue to own small shank actions based on the fact that 95% of all my barrels are small shank. Additionally it seems like most used barrels I see offered are small shank also.

So far in this thread or elsewhere, I haven't seen any reason that convinces me that I need had to have a large shank on hand at all - though having at least one for used barrel "deals" that sometimes show up in large shank makes sense, plus in the dark recesses of my mind, I really do prefer the large shank for the RUM cases, even though they are "safe" in the small.

I will probably hold on to the one large shank long action I do own just for those reasons, and because it is machined in the mag well area for the 300 RUM length cases already if I ever wanted to install it in a stagger feed configuration. I may eventually get rid of the other large shank(s), though the thought of decreasing the number of Savage actions I own seems very wrong somehow, even if I were to get a small shank to replace it. ;)

[Jamie]

it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy when im shooting way over pressure charges.

^^^^^^^ Most people don't realize they are shooting above safe pressures.

Machinist I have talked to will chamber RUMs in a small shank and many have never had an issue.

Gunsmith's will not, ask Fred. That little extra meat around the chamber with an explosion 6 inches from your face always helps.

[WinnieTheBoom]

Gunsmith's will not, ask Fred. That little extra meat around the chamber with an explosion 6 inches from your face always helps.

This is what puts it in perspective for most people.

Can RUM, WSM, and other mags be shoehorned into the small shank action? Yes, they can all be physically put into a standard LA. When you consider the circumstances though, a high pressure controlled explosion just inches from your face, and the consequential risks involved with doing so... Well, that's usually enough to sway people towards the extra added security. It's most certainly never going to hurt anything, put it that way.

It ultimately comes down to you though. If that's what you want to do it, why not? Don't let people on the internet tell you one way or the other. Plenty of people have had success in doing the same exact thing that you're talking about. But let's saying there's even a slight chance of failure. What's that slight chance worth to you?

[geargrinder]

That's the whole rub. In actuallity, there is very little extra meat. They have added barrel thickness, but taken away thickness from the action and the barrel nut.

They have removed thickness from a heat treated action and made the non-heat treated barrel tennon more thick. A step backward in safety.

Where they do make ground is in front of the barrel nut. That is the only place that has any extra meat that gives a strength advantage in a large shank.

If you have any concern, make it a shouldered barrel like a remington.

Shank size really isn't the issue, there are a ton of other manufacturers that make RUM's and WSM's with the same size shank as the Savage small shank. You don't hear about any of them blowing up either.

[WinnieTheBoom]

Well being that the pressure is concentrated in the chamber, that's really where you want the extra material. The action itself doesn't make much of a difference, but being able to use the larger diameter barrel gives you the added piece of mind with higher pressure cartridges.

Like I said before, is it probably fine? Sure. But if you have the option to have bigger and better all else being equal (cost), you're saying you'd rather not? Point being, there's no reason not to use a large shank.

[geargrinder]

There isn't any extra material at the chamber. If there was, the action and the barrel nut would have a larger OD on large shank action.

The total amount of material around the chamber is the same in a small shank action and a large shank action.

The action absolutely matters. That's why Savage heat treats the front bridge area. The area that goes around the chamber.

Fred also has said that the Lapua actions get a special heat treat.

Barrels are not heat treated.

Like I said before. Large shanks have less heat treated material, and more non-heat treated material.

If I remember my schooling, that usually makes things weaker as a whole. I've also learned that engineers do some dumb things, sometimes for very good reasons.

[Jamie]

There isn't any extra material at the chamber. If there was, the action and the barrel nut would have a larger OD on large shank action.

The total amount of material around the chamber is the same in a small shank action and a large shank action.

The action absolutely matters. That's why Savage heat treats the front bridge area. The area that goes around the chamber.

Fred also has said that the Lapua actions get a special heat treat.

Barrels are not heat treated.

Like I said before. Large shanks have less heat treated material, and more non-heat treated material.

If I remember my schooling, that usually makes things weaker as a whole. I've also learned that engineers do some dumb things, sometimes for very good reasons.

The problem isn't really in the action, it is the nut. There are two main things, the threads are a weaker less dense area, so any metal you can add before the weak spot is better when maintaining the same OD. Because they are threaded, they do not have the extra material like shouldered barrels do (Remington) when you go forward of the action. So while the OD is the same, the large shank barrel puts more metal around the chamber. Those nuts are not strong at all, even saw a few post of people splitting them on here.

I am not a metallurgist and Savage didn't recall the early models but they feel safer with the large shanks and the gunsmith's I spoke with all said the same thing. They know more than I do, so I listened.

[Robinhood]

There isn't any extra material at the chamber. If there was, the action and the barrel nut would have a larger OD on large shank action.
This is my first time to disagree with you geargrinder. By my calculations it would be a negligible 1/32 per side or 1/16th radially, but different none the less.

As for special heat treat what are we talking here. Is it for the lugs or is it to increase the strength around the threads. I am no engineer but with metals and their properties, content is often more critical than the hardness. Compare 4140 to 4130 for example. I think you will find that although 4140 is more common the 1.6-2.0% more nickle in 4340 offers some substantial gains in hardenability and fracture toughness.

[geargrinder]

The problem isn't really in the action, it is the nut. There are two main things, the threads are a weaker less dense area, so any metal you can add before the weak spot is better when maintaining the same OD. Because they are threaded, they do not have the extra material like shouldered barrels do (Remington) when you go forward of the action. So while the OD is the same, the large shank barrel puts more metal around the chamber. Those nuts are not strong at all, even saw a few post of people splitting them on here.

I am not a metallurgist and Savage didn't recall the early models but they feel safer with the large shanks and the gunsmith's I spoke with all said the same thing. They know more than I do, so I listened.

The large shank nuts are more prone to splitting, they are thinner.

And the point about the amount of barrel being thicker in front of the nut isn't quite there either. The factory RUM's and WSM's had sporter barrels that stepped down right at the end of the nut bring it down the the same amount of material as a small shank barrel in front of the nut.

All I'm trying to say is that the amount of additional safety they think they are getting with a large shank probably isn't worth the cost difference over a small shank.

[WinnieTheBoom]

And I think most would argue that, action for action, all else being equal, the cost difference between SS and LS is negligible at most.

I've seen target/LS actions go for the same thing that your standard small shank actions do. When you're talking brand new complete rifles, then yes, you're going to pay more for a LS. But going back to the original point, if you already have a large shank action there is no point in getting rid of it for a small shank.

[geargrinder]

What's the going price of a long action large shank action? There's pretty much only 3 options.

1- Lapua Action
2- 375 Ruger
3- Old Production RUM

You can get a 7mm package Model 111 for cheaper than any of those actions.