Neck bushing advice

[Hair_Boxers]

Logic check. Need to get the final pieces in place to start putting rounds together for my rifle as the build is almost complete. I am running Redding Type-S bushing neck dies and it's time to order my bushing(s) and anything else I need.

I have a variety of brass for my 25-06AI. Neck thickness varies from the .012's to the .014's for the stuff I am going to start with. It's all once fired 25-06 with multiple headstamps.

Options feel like:
1. just buy one bushing and not worry about neck thickness and effect on neck tension right now. equivalent of running a standard non-bushing die.
2. sort brass by neck thickness and buy multiple bushings to maintain consistent neck tension. Load in batches by neck thickness/bushing size.
3. buy a neck turner and turn case necks to a consistent thickness. Either establish my target thickness or find the min thickness and turn down to that. Buy one bushing and reload everything using that one bushing.

Since my gun is an Ackley I need to fire form cases. I have a standard 25-06 Redding FL sizing die that I run everything through before doing that. My fire forming load will be the fast pistol powder (Unique or Longshot) with TP wad and cream of wheat filler style.

I also have a copious amount of 30-06 brass and plan to neck some of that down. I am aware that case neck thickness on those cases will increase as a result of that process.

My gut (and budget) says go with option 1 with plan to ultimately use option 3 when I can afford the neck turning tools. This will eliminate needing to sort cases every reloading as well as account for introduction of the necked down brass when time for that happens.

In this case, I am thinking a .282 bushing? Should provide adequate neck tension on what I have now, and allow me to turn down to a neck thickness of .013 in the future.

Thoughts?

[WinnieTheBoom]

Honestly, if you're wanting to get that deep into it, serious reloaders will only use one type of brass from the same manufacturing lot. Same with powders. In my experience, it's just not worth the hassle...

I would recommend option 1, by far and away. Use the smallest neck diameter that you have (of a loaded round) and then subtract .002 from there. That's your bushing size. Option 2 is not worth it to the vast majority of guys. I don't even use my Type S neck sizing dies anymore. I went back to sizing dies that come with the $30 RCBS sets from Cabela's. Crazy that my accuracy has been better than it ever was with neck sizing. YMMV.

[Hair_Boxers]

Winnie - true on the brass, powder, primers, bullets, etc.. I am working with what I have for now mainly due to budget reasons I guess. This was either free or $10 per 100 so good brass to use when figuring out the whole Improved process. I'll work towards the consistency rules as cash allows. Will be interesting, and fun, to see how those changes deliver results, if at all.

Thanks for the thoughts on the options. Nice that #1 makes sense and that #2 seems as ridiculous as I thought it was.

[LongRange]

the other option(or to add to option #1 and #2)would be to by a de-capping rod and sizing button for your type S die(if you dont have one) that way the inside of the necks would be the same and tension would be close...if it were me id sort all the brass by internal capacity...especially since its mixed...i just bought a 25 piece lot of brass and 24pcs are 52.5 to 53g H2o capacity and one piece is 50.1g...2 or 3 grains in internal case capacity makes a big difference especially if running higher charge weights.

[Hair_Boxers]

LongRange - good point on using the sizing button to get consistent ID on the necks. I will probably try it both with and without to see if there is any noticeable difference, both while loading as well as at the range.

I am certainly going to do some case sorting, and capacity makes sense. I may break it out by headstamp and then do a capacity test to see if I can combine any headstamps into groups.

I've noticed the difference capacity has with my .308. I use both RP and Win brass, but have kept it sorted by headstamp and lot. The RP has less capacity and loads that are 100% in the Win are compressed in the RP. Haven't had over pressure, but it's certainly a good reminder on how different components will affect loads.

[cowtownup]

I think the Type S comes with a sizing button. I just got one for my 260 and the button measures 0.262.... Really it would perform a lot like a Lee Collet die if you use the button and pull back thru the neck after sizing it down.

[nso123]

Redding also makes a 25-06 AI full lenth Type S die if you want to full length size it and control the neck size.

[doctnj]

Dont the type s fl dies come with internal re sizing button?

[LongRange]

yes...not sure what i was thinking...worst part is i just bought a type S die a month or so ago.

[Hair_Boxers]

You can pull the sizing button and just use the bushing.

Should have been a decapping rod retainer that allows you to still do the decapping process.

I feel like the Type-S is pretty flexible in allowing you to select what processes you do, or don't do, when using.

We'll see if they live up to my hopes.

[earl39]

If you are just going to neck size without the button then necks need to be turned to same thickness or your neck tension will vary.

[Hair_Boxers]

If you are just going to neck size without the button then necks need to be turned to same thickness or your neck tension will vary.

Yes. That is the ultimate plan. Just building to it as budget allows.

[Robinhood]

If your necks are varying thickness you will experience different neck tension regardless if you pull it across a button. But if you meant it will be intensified by the different sized diameters then you are correct.

[earl39]

If your necks are varying thickness you will experience different neck tension regardless if you pull it across a button. But if you meant it will be intensified by the different sized diameters then you are correct.
Let me clarify a little. With different thickness of neck and just using a neck bushing and no button you will have a variation of ID in the neck resulting in no consistency of tension at all. At least with the button you get for example .002 tension in the neck consistently. Actual tension will vary due to other properties such as shots fired without annealing, number of shots on the brass if all brass does not have the same number of firings on it, lot to lot variation, should i really go on? There is no perfect setup or materials just a lot of mistake ridden humans trying to prove themselves sane by doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results (the definition of insane by the way).

[Hair_Boxers]

Let me clarify a little. With different thickness of neck and just using a neck bushing and no button you will have a variation of ID in the neck resulting in no consistency of tension at all. At least with the button you get for example .002 tension in the neck consistently. Actual tension will vary due to other properties such as shots fired without annealing, number of shots on the brass if all brass does not have the same number of firings on it, lot to lot variation, should i really go on? There is no perfect setup or materials just a lot of mistake ridden humans trying to prove themselves sane by doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results (the definition of insane by the way).

Absolutely agree and great points.

In many ways it appears that the fewer of those conditions (neck thickness, lot matching, annealing, etc.) you control, the less benefit a bushing type die has.

The way I am approaching right now is that the bushing die allows me to experiement with controlling those factors in the future if time and budget allow. Right now if I run with a bushing and a sizing button I am basically at the same as a traditional die. The one caveat being that with the ability to choose bushing size I may have some ability to control how much the neck of the case is worked during each resizing. Really depends on if the bushing I select is smaller, same, or larger than what would have been built into a non-bushing die.

Gives me something to spend time on when I can't get to the range but can make it to the basement for some loading bench time. :)

[m12lrs]

well first what are you trying to do? Is this just a fun gun for the range? Are you going to be happy with 1" groups? Or are you trying to wring out every bit of accuracy out of that rifle?

First thing I would do is sort them by headstamp. Now I only use Lapua brass to ensure the most consistency available from the start.

I don't believe I would even use a bushing die if I were you. Get a forster full length sizing die. They are cheaper than redding and just as good or better.

Load them and shoot them.

Try to keep all the headstamps together and number of times fired together

see what your results tell you.

You might find one headstamp shoots better. You might find they all shoot about the same.

Only change 1 thing at a time during load development where you can really evaluate the results

start a log book and write everything down.

[m12lrs]

I am a little extreme but here is what I do

Clean brass with an ultrasonic

use all kinds of dies forster, redding and Wilson.

I use lapua brass, CCI benchrest primers

Berger VLD's or Hybrid target or the new Lapua Scenar L

weigh powder charges to the 0.02 grains

Most of the time I jam 0.01-0.02 into the lands

I keep all brass sorted by times fired and anneal every 3 firings

lots of other details in there but that is the basics

[Hair_Boxers]

well first what are you trying to do? Is this just a fun gun for the range? Are you going to be happy with 1" groups? Or are you trying to wring out every bit of accuracy out of that rifle?

FUN GUN THAT WILL BE USED FOR HUNTING TOO. LEARNING EXPERIENCE ON ALL FRONTS IN REALITY. ASSEMBLE GUN FROM PARTS. FIREFORM TO AI CHAMBER. RELOAD USING BUSHING DIES. LOTS OF LEARNING!

First thing I would do is sort them by headstamp. Now I only use Lapua brass to ensure the most consistency available from the start.

HEADSTAMP SORT IS DONE. GOING TO WEIGH AND SEE WHAT KIND OF SPREAD I SEE AND FIGURE OUT IF I NEED TO BREAK INTO SMALLER GROUPS BASED ON WEIGHT. MAY ALSO USE H2O TO MEASURE CAPACITY IF WEIGHTS ARE OUT OF LINE.

I don't believe I would even use a bushing die if I were you. Get a forster full length sizing die. They are cheaper than redding and just as good or better.

ALREADY HAVE IT, SO GOING TO PLAY WITH IT. :)

Load them and shoot them.

Try to keep all the headstamps together and number of times fired together

I HAVE A COPIOUS AMOUNT OF AMMO BOXES SO THAT'S TOTALLY IN THE PLAN. GOING TO ANNEAL EVERYTHING AND THAT WILL BE MY BASELINE FOR # TIMES FIRED TO START.

see what your results tell you.

You might find one headstamp shoots better. You might find they all shoot about the same.

GOING TO BE INTERESTING NO MATTER WHAT.

Only change 1 thing at a time during load development where you can really evaluate the results

start a log book and write everything down.

THAT IS ALREADY A PRACTICE, BUT NEEDS TO CONTAIN MORE DETAILS. RIGHT NOW IT'S MAINLY A RECORD OF WHAT I ASSEMBLE AND DOESN'T INCLUDE MUCH RANGE DATA. WILL START LOGGING THAT TOO.



My replies are inline in CAPS above. Wasn't shouting at you, just easiest way to differentiate.

[Hair_Boxers]

I am a little extreme but here is what I do

Clean brass with an ultrasonic

use all kinds of dies forster, redding and Wilson.

I use lapua brass, CCI benchrest primers

Berger VLD's or Hybrid target or the new Lapua Scenar L

weigh powder charges to the 0.02 grains

Most of the time I jam 0.01-0.02 into the lands

I keep all brass sorted by times fired and anneal every 3 firings

lots of other details in there but that is the basics

My process to date:
tumble fired rounds to clean. this isn't really necessary b/c they don't touch the ground, but just something I have always done. may discontinue.
size and de-prime
tumble to remove case lube
if needed length trim, chamfer and deburr
prime
weigh powder to 0.1
bullets are seated depending on what I am shooting. Barnes I keep 0.050 off. Jacketed lead is usually right on the lands to 0.010 off.

I need to add annealing to the mix. My brass is ready for the .308 and my .25-06 stuff is a mix so hopefully an annealing will bring some consistency.

I am also going to try some neck turning and see how that works and if it helps.

In the end the guns are probably better than I am, which thankfully is something I can try to fix with more time at the range. I'd love it if I got to the point where I wanted/needed more from my reloads because my skills behind the gun were that improved.

[cm12setx]

Hair_Boxers this is off topic but a good way to respond in a quote is to add your response in color. right beside the size tab in the quick reply box is a A with a down triangle. Click on it and chose a color.

And on topic have fun reloading. I usually go to a friend's house and reload and hang out.

OK this might not work out like I thought , I visit a site that uses the same format and the color works better there. lol