Zeroing vortex viper pst and reticle travle

[upSLIDEdown]

There is no possible way to get more travel than your scope has in it's internal adjustment, period.

I own 2 PSTs and Gen 1 Razor and shoot regularly out past 1k.

For round numbers, we'll use your 80moa example. The scope has 80moa of total travel. In a perfect world, that means you have 40 up and 40 down. Adding the 20moa base would give you 60 up and 20 down. That's it. There's no way to increase that. There's no way to disengage the turret from the erector to 'get all 80moa of travel' back. If there were, I'm pretty sure everyone's scopes would do it, and that would elminate the need for an angled base.

My Razor is on my 338 Edge. The reason I picked it is because of the massive amount of travel it has. It has just over 120moa of total travel. I put a 60moa base on it, hoping it would still zero at 100. If not, I was prepared to use a hold-under for my zero, as I wanted all the travel I could get out of it, planning to shoot out past 2000 yards. My zero is almost at the bottom of the erector, so I have all the travel up from that.

[yobuck]

What would happen if


What would happen (IF) you held the bottom line or dot or whatever your reticle has, on the target, and then dialed off that from your zero setting?
How many mils/minits would the scope have then?
Is there any rule that says you cant pick and choose what you use as an aiming reference and where you dial from?
It does help if you know where you would be for distance by just using a particulr reference for aiming.
Think of it not as a holdover, but simply dialing from the max holdover. lol
So why not utilize the reticle to its fullest extent by knowing the distances each of those marks fall on?
Then just fine tune by dialing rather than all dialing? This is where the focal plane argument would have some impact.

[upSLIDEdown]

I'd guess you'd want to use the top line, then you'd have everything under that as a holdover at the end of the travel... You're losing that off the bat going say, 5 mils up, but gaining it back with the end holdover having a total of say, 15 mils total (5 above and 10 below center), so you'd net a total of 10 mils extra? Maybe? lol I don't know, and it's too late to wrap my head around at this point.

[yobuck]

I'd guess you'd want to use the top line, then you'd have everything under that as a holdover at the end of the travel... You're losing that off the bat going say, 5 mils up, but gaining it back with the end holdover having a total of say, 15 mils total (5 above and 10 below center), so you'd net a total of 10 mils extra? Maybe? lol I don't know, and it's too late to wrap my head around at this point.

Forget about above center, put it out of your mind.
Zero the gun as always by using the center or main cross hair.
Then hold the bottom mark on the target at 100 yds and shoot.
Your shot will be high, how much will determine about where it lands at distance.
So lets assume it would be 1000 yds for sake of this conversation.
That means your on at 1000 yds by using the bottom mark and you havent used any clicks to get there.
So instead of using up your clicks first then holding over, your using the holdover first and (precisly) dialing from there
because you still have all your clicks left.
Take that to the bank that it works, and with a ffp scope you could pick the power to do it on.
So now how far can you dial a scope?

[doctnj]

Slide! What happens when you mount the scope with the reticle cranked all the way to the bottom. The only way you can go is UP!!!! Not 40/40 That is the old mount in the center deal. Im talking about just what they told me over the phone that you crank it all the way down so there is no more down left in it. THEN mount it that way. At this very point there is (for the sake of argument) only 80 up available. You cannot go down any more... Not even one click.
WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU PUT THAT SCOPE, IN THAT CONDITION, ON A 20MOA RAIL? Don't mean to yell but I am trying to emphasize that at that very moment before you touch your turret you indeed have all internal 80 available plus the 20 of the rail. Wow this is truly a mind bending concept.

I will admit I may be so screwed up in my mind. But it is what they told me and the more I thought about what I just explained the more it made complete sense. My rings should be here today so if im not too tired after the gym after work I will mount it up the way they explained and see for myself.

I have to say this really is a great conversation.

[Rob01]

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU PUT THAT SCOPE, IN THAT CONDITION, ON A 20MOA RAIL? Don't mean to yell but I am trying to emphasize that at that very moment before you touch your turret you indeed have all internal 80 available plus the 20 of the rail. Wow this is truly a mind bending concept.



What happens then is your POI is 20 MOA higher than it would of been and you won't be able to adjust it down. You will have to hold under the POA quite a bit and might not even have the room on the reticle to do so. That situation would be fine if you had a 800 yard zero and using the scope for ELR shooting as I mentioned but not if you plan on having a 100 yard zero.

[doctnj]

You are going to have to dial up off the bottom to get to bull. But the attempt here is to preserve as much elevation as possible. You know I don't even know if this way is going to equal to anything extra at all. It may just wind up being exactly the same.

This is why I think there may be something to it. When I zero my vortex, there is a hashmark and a half below zero so yes I only have a little over half elevation left. I think anyhow that the elevation (outside) adjustment is separately adjustable from the inside erector. So at the beginning both are bottomed out then tightened back up. After its mounted and zeroed, the outside stays in place but the erector stop is dialed back down and re locked to the bottom. You def. loose what ever it took to go from bottom to bulls eye. It very well might be the exact same place.

[Rob01]

If bottomed out in the scope and then add 20 MOA canted base you impact will be high as the 20 MOA adds up elevation from POA to POI. That is why you dial down in the scope when outing it on a 20 MOA base to allow you for more up elevation.

[Rob01]

This is why I think there may be something to it. When I zero my vortex, there is a hashmark and a half below zero so yes I only have a little over half elevation left. I think anyhow that the elevation (outside) adjustment is separately adjustable from the inside erector. So at the beginning both are bottomed out then tightened back up. After its mounted and zeroed, the outside stays in place but the erector stop is dialed back down and re locked to the bottom. You def. loose what ever it took to go from bottom to bulls eye. It very well might be the exact same place.

It may be a different system like the US Optics EREK which has a separate click mechanism and you zero with the click erector at the bottom of its travel to act as a pseudo zero stop but you are moving the actual erector with a center allen wrench to get a rough zero and then use a couple clicks to get your zero. You still have down elevation not used on the actual erector but the click mechanism won't go down lower as it is bottomed out.

It also might be a knob that doesn't show the lines underneath when the knob is turned. Not all are like the PST or Leupold Mark 4 who have revolution lines. There are many that don't as well. They have separate revolution indicators like the S&B pop up window or the Vortex Razor II small pin that sticks out showing what revolution you are on but both those set ups also have a hard zero stop, which is what it seems like the Smart Zero is as well. I am still waiting for a return call from Weaver.

Was on my phone earlier and hate writing too much on that so hence the second post. Sorry.

[doctnj]

I will be extremely interested in what they tell you. If the instructions that come with the darn scope aren't even for the one in the box it would be no wonder Im getting bad info.

[doctnj]

I mounted it tonight and played with it so it isnt quite right but. You do indeed spin down the internal erector tube first after you separate it from the outer knurled ring by loosening two set screws. Once the erector is bottomed out the set screws are tightened back up and cap replaced. Now the only way to go is up. So you turn counterclockwise to bore site. Then from that point follow normal sight in procedures ( I have not done that yet) I did a home job bore site by looking through the scope and barrel on a spot on the wall. Now I will wait till I go to the range and finish the job. I tried to finish it by loosening the set screws again and spinning down the internal knurled ring to the bottom and re tightening but after I did I only got 14.6 mil of revolution up. That cant be right. But again its not sighted in right yet either. I will have a better feel for it sat night.

[doctnj]

Here are some pics of the process. The first one shows the difference in turret size compared to vortex. The second pic shows the center erector adjustment and the very outside ring in the picture is the connection between the erector and the outside turret. And the last picture is showing it bottomed out on the scale prior to bore sighting. I was only able to Kind of sight it in at about 30 ft at the most so there is quite some adjustment to be made. Im going to call weaver today to be sure I did everything right. If so as it stands Im left with almost 50 moa of uptravel left. lt is what it is. Thats still not shabby . And last pic is where the set screws are that connect the outer adjustment knob to the internal erector.http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w435/doctnj/Mobile%20Uploads/20160204_210816.jpg
http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w435/doctnj/Mobile%20Uploads/20160204_195128.jpghttp://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w435/doctnj/Mobile%20Uploads/20160204_210746.jpghttp://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w435/doctnj/Mobile%20Uploads/20160204_210907.jpg

[doctnj]

So the results so far seem to come out to the same as if it were mounted with cross hairs in the middle like any other scope and dialed in. Unless I am doing something wrong. It was pretty complicated and I did it at least 3 times. On one attempt when I was spinning counterclockwise (Up), the outside hash marks showed I was going down. Apparently a really good torque on the internal set screws is required so they dont slip. The scope is slightly higher than I normally try for but very comfortable behind the gun. I would normally have to lube up the cap to get it in place. With this one I will have barely over quarter inch space between cap and rail. So far Im giving this scope low marks on how complicated is to set up. Of course I will take some blame for over thinking. But holy crap, spin this down, loosen those up, spin that down, wait for a click, tighten that up, OMG!

My question for everyone is what effects on the erector position will bore sighting at such a close range? Say compared to 100 yrds. Will I be adjusting down or up. Yes I am so confused I dont know which way is up.

[doctnj]

Just got off the phone with weaver. They are saying that 14.6 mils available up travel at this point is reasonably where I should be. My confidence in the guy answering my questions is not very good. It didn't seem like he really understood what I was asking. He had to go ask some one else and then came back and gave me answers.

I was just under the impression that with a 34mm tube that I would have a little more adjustment space considering the 20moa rail. Basically 1 and a half rotations seems like its short. So at this point I am going to continue on to the sight in tomorrow and see where I am at. I certainly don't know.

[Rob01]

Seem like you have a set up similar to a combination of the older Razor and the new Razor II. The old Razor you took the outer cap off and then loosened the set screws and and zeroed with the innner knob. When done you tightened the set screws and put the outer cap on and good to go. You don't automatically bottom out the internal erector as all that will do is make you have to dial back up when you zero. You loosen the set screws and use the center erector screw to zero the rifle and then tighten the set screws and replace the cap. At first it is different but you will get the hang of it. You will have a hard zero stop but don;t think that is the bottom of the erector travel. It's not. You will still have travel under the zero stop you are not using but that is fine. 14.6 mils of up is a good amount of up travel. Most .308s take about 10.5-12 mils to get to 1000.

Below are the videos for the Razor and Razor II
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDt4rlQXuLM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkWYLinCaIw

[yobuck]

What happens then is your POI is 20 MOA higher than it would of been and you won't be able to adjust it down. You will have to hold under the POA quite a bit and might not even have the room on the reticle to do so. That situation would be fine if you had a 800 yard zero and using the scope for ELR shooting as I mentioned but not if you plan on having a 100 yard zero.

Youve never actually phisicaly, personaly done this have you?

[Rob01]

Youve never actually phisicaly, personaly done this have you?

I have never bottomed out an erector and put the scope on a 20 MOA base but I have moved a scope from a 0 MOA base to a 20 MOA base and the POI was 20 MOA high and then had to dial down to zero. All my scopes are zeroed at 100 as I don't have any of the ELR rigs that are usually set up with the scopes bottomed out.

And just to clarify, when I posted that I was going off his assumption that the scope would be zeroed at 100 with the erector at the bottom of it's travel.

[upSLIDEdown]

Forget about above center, put it out of your mind.
Zero the gun as always by using the center or main cross hair.
Then hold the bottom mark on the target at 100 yds and shoot.
Your shot will be high, how much will determine about where it lands at distance.
So lets assume it would be 1000 yds for sake of this conversation.
That means your on at 1000 yds by using the bottom mark and you havent used any clicks to get there.
So instead of using up your clicks first then holding over, your using the holdover first and (precisly) dialing from there
because you still have all your clicks left.
Take that to the bank that it works, and with a ffp scope you could pick the power to do it on.
So now how far can you dial a scope?


The same amount. That's not going to change anything. You're still using all of the mechanical adjustability and all of the holdover, you're just using the holdover first instead of last. It won't change a thing as far as overall adjustability. I shot a match a month ago that had targets every 100 yards out to 1000, and had to make 10 shots in 90 seconds. There's no way I'd have been able to dial in between every shot, so I did exactly what you're talking about. Left the scope at zero and used holdovers all the way out. From there, you could still adjust the turrets, but it's not going to change the overall amount of adjustment.



Doc.
I'm going to repeat this.


There is no possible way to get more travel than your scope has in it's internal adjustment, period.

I own 2 PSTs and Gen 1 Razor and shoot regularly out past 1k.

For round numbers, we'll use your 80moa example. The scope has 80moa of total travel. In a perfect world, that means you have 40 up and 40 down. Adding the 20moa base would give you 60 up and 20 down. That's it. There's no way to increase that. There's no way to disengage the turret from the erector to 'get all 80moa of travel' back. If there were, I'm pretty sure everyone's scopes would do it, and that would elminate the need for an angled base.

My Razor is on my 338 Edge. The reason I picked it is because of the massive amount of travel it has. It has just over 120moa of total travel. I put a 60moa base on it, hoping it would still zero at 100. If not, I was prepared to use a hold-under for my zero, as I wanted all the travel I could get out of it, planning to shoot out past 2000 yards. My zero is almost at the bottom of the erector, so I have all the travel up from that.

To get the MOST adjustment out of a scope, you'd want your 100yd zero to be at or towards the bottom of the erector, like my 338 is set up that I mentioned above. Your Weaver is set up similar to my Creed. It's a PST on a 20moa base.

If your glass has 80moa of total adjustment, and you put a 20moa base, that will effectively give you 20 down and 60 up, from theoretical optical zero of the actual glass. With the distance of 100yards, the height over bore, etc, you'll never have that perfect 20/60 ratio, but if you did, 60 moa up equates to a little over 17mils. Sounds like that's about where you are, or a little less, so everything is as it should be. That's all you're gonna get, and that's plenty unless you're planning to shoot ELR distances, in which case you should have gone with a different setup. (The exact reason I chose the Razor and a 60moa base... I can dial out to around 2600 and with a 10mil holdover in the reticle, get to almost 3k... from a 100yd zero).

[doctnj]

yes slide I am seeing that with this experience. I initially was going off of what first weaver tech was explaining to me. After speaking with a few of them it has become apparent that they are not as familiar with this scope as I would have liked. I have one more call into them to ask them what the heck the hash marks on the center dial are even for. The ones around the center erector adjustment. If I were zeroing like the razor gen 11 then I could see why it would be needed. But all they say to do is crank it down till it stops.

I am however glad to hear that it is in the neighborhood of what SHOULD be available after it is set. Ill see how it performs at the range tomorrow.

[doctnj]

I just thought about it. The other thing that was throwing me off was how few turns I could make before I was topped out. This is the first 10 mil per revolution I've owned. When you spin that bad boy you get to the end of your rope pretty quick.