FFP & SFP Scope Question

[dawg4life]

I have a question for you guys that are more knowledgeable about scopes. I had a guy argue with me today about ffp vs sfp. I don't want to start another argument but he told me that a sfp scope will have a point of impact shift throughout the magnification range. I tried looking this up but was unable to find any proof of this. So my question is: Does a Second Focal Plane optic experience a point of impact shift throughout its magnification range??? Thanks for the help guys.

[hafejd30]

No. Some cheap scopes will but that's because of the cheap scope internals. Not the focal plane. This pertains to your zeroed distance. Example: shooting 100 yards on 14 power, then adjust to 10 power and have you poi shift is a problem. If your talking distance with a drop reticle then refer to scoutsnypers post below

[ScoutSnyper]

The short answer is no. If you have a ballistic reticule, one with marks corresponding to a certain range, then yes it could. In a SFP scope that reticule is calibrated to a certain magnification, if you use the hash marks at an incorrect magnification, they will be off. It isn't rally a POI change persay, but one could misunderstand this and make that argument.

[LongRange]

The short answer is no. If you have a ballistic reticule, one with marks corresponding to a certain range, then yes it could. In a SFP scope that reticule is calibrated to a certain magnification, if you use the hash marks at an incorrect magnification, they will be off. It isn't rally a POI change persay, but one could misunderstand this and make that argument.

very good explanation.

[Richard]

Sorry to jump in , what is ffp and sfp? I'm fairly new to optics

[ScoutSnyper]

Sorry to jump in , what is ffp and sfp? I'm fairly new to optics
It has to do with where the reticule is placed in the scope. Most scopes are second focal plane, meaning the reticule is always the same size regardless on what magnification the scope is one. Like mentioned above, if the reticule is calibrated and in the second plane it's calibrations only work at one magnification. On my scopes that is the maximum. If the scope has the reticule in the first focal plane, then it changes sizes with the magnification and any calibrations work regardless of magnification.

By calibrations, I mean a calibrated reticule, Mil-dots or MOA markings.

[darkker]

Good explanations.

First Focal Plane - Crosshairs grow and shrink with magnification, but relative to the target are always the same. So if you have matching turrets/reticle, the adjustments work as you expect.

Second Focal Plane - Crosshairs never change size with magnification. Meaning relative to the target, they change. So the adjustments will correspondingly not adjust correctly, except at one magnification.

Simply shooting and adjusting power, will give a impact shift on a POS scope. But that is regardless of focal plane.

[yobuck]

It has to do with where the reticule is placed in the scope. Most scopes are second focal plane, meaning the reticule is always the same size regardless on what magnification the scope is one. Like mentioned above, if the reticule is calibrated and in the second plane it's calibrations only work at one magnification. On my scopes that is the maximum. If the scope has the reticule in the first focal plane, then it changes sizes with the magnification and any calibrations work regardless of magnification.

By calibrations, I mean a calibrated reticule, Mil-dots or MOA markings.

As good an explanation as you will get and still understand it.

Remember this, those that argue first focal plane are saying in effect that good shooting wasent possible untill they came to be.
And thats been a very short time.
If your dialing a scope with a plain cross hair reticle, it makes no difference which focal plane as for point of impact. A 1/4 min click is a 1/4 min click.
On the other hand, my old vx3 3.5x10 in which i had a custom reticle having multible dots installed, which were calibrated to
the actual load i use, (must) be used on the power i selected which was 10 in order for them to be accurate.
Whereas with a 1st focal plane any power could be used, althought the dot size would change as power was changed.
The ranging aspects of the scopes in my opinion is a different argument. For my type use ill take a rangfinder.

[darkker]

Remember this, those that argue first focal plane are saying in effect that good shooting wasent possible untill they came to be.
And thats been a very short time.
If your dialing a scope with a plain cross hair reticle, it makes no difference which focal plane as for point of impact. A 1/4 min click is a 1/4 min click.
.

Here in the USA consumer market, yes. But FFP scopes have been around for quite some time, they just haven't been the "popular" thing so not many know about them.

Yes the 1/4 click SFP's always move 1/4, but because the reticle changes size with Mag, RELATIVE to the target, it isn't as intuitive to have a reference as to how much that is on target; unless you know exactly how big the target it.

For people who don't dial, range, or want a reference of relative size; there is no reason to concern yourself with the focal argument. If you do want to do those things, it is easier to do with a FFP.
As you say, many will pack around a range finder. I am more of a minimalist, and don't like packing a bunch of different things around.
So it comes to what makes you happy.

[yobuck]

Here in the USA consumer market, yes. But FFP scopes have been around for quite some time, they just haven't been the "popular" thing so not many know about them.

Yes the 1/4 click SFP's always move 1/4, but because the reticle changes size with Mag, RELATIVE to the target, it isn't as intuitive to have a reference as to how much that is on target; unless you know exactly how big the target it.

For people who don't dial, range, or want a reference of relative size; there is no reason to concern yourself with the focal argument. If you do want to do those things, it is easier to do with a FFP.
As you say, many will pack around a range finder. I am more of a minimalist, and don't like packing a bunch of different things around.
So it comes to what makes you happy.

A Leica 1600 is about the size of a pack of king size cigerates, so thats pretty minimal.
And using one, ill beat you 10 times out of 10 for both speed and accuracy in that department.
Otherwise i could care less what others prefer, and i wouldnt argue i might like 1st ffp
myself should i ever try one.

[LongRange]

as long as you can remember what pocket you put your range finder in LOL!!

[darkker]

And using one, ill beat you 10 times out of 10 for both speed and accuracy in that department.
Otherwise I could care less what others prefer

Pack your "ciggarette case" if it makes you happy, you'll get no complaints from me. I don't want more stuff in my pockets while I'm army crawling in the sagebrush, digging in my pockets to find my ranger, then getting back on the rifle.
But I don't care what others do, so much so, to not care who "wins" the race. I care whether or not I'm gutting a deer:cool:
Not everyone hunts the same, or has to cover the same distance. I'm all for making life easier, I just may have a easier route for me, that may or may not line-up with someone elses senseabilities.


as long as you can remember what pocket you put your range finder in LOL!!

That's my thought!!

[yobuck]

as long as you can remember what pocket you put your range finder in LOL!!

Ive always made it a point to surround myself with capable people. Then everything that goes wrong is their fault, which leaves me free to take credit for what dosent.
Ive also always made it a point not to go squirmin around on my belly looking for things to shoot at.
I mean there is a civilized way one can go about things.

[LongRange]

Ive always made it a point to surround myself with capable people. Then everything that goes wrong is their fault, which leaves me free to take credit for what dosent.
Ive also always made it a point not to go squirmin around on my belly looking for things to shoot at.
I mean there is a civilized way one can go about things.

i do the same thing and that person is me so at the end of the day the only person to blame is me and I'm to fat and lazy to be squirming around on my stomach lol.

[Russmerle]

Well said above by all. you can range with a SFP... You can range with a FFP... I have both and as long as you know your equipment; you'll be gtg. SFP doesn't shift POI if you are using the center cross hairs and the parallax adjustment correctly as well as ranging on the right power. A scope that inherently shifts POI with zooming is useless; so that makes my 20x Trijicon Accupoint junk ;)

[dawg4life]

thanks for all the replies guys