Savage 10 Scout in 7.62x39 on the way. Am I going to love or hate this gun?

[Newtosavage]

I have looked longingly at the Savage LWH. Very pricey, but I'm sure it's worth every penny. Haven't been able to put my hands on one yet though. At $1K with tax, I'm almost afraid to!

If I ever do get one, it will be in the .308 for sure. I've also thought of just hacking up my 11 to shed some weight. Cutting the barrel down from 22 to 18" and trimming the scope from the 14-oz. beast that's on there now to something in the 8-9 oz. range, and trimming a little from the stock. That would save me a pound of weight and take the rifle from 7.5 lbs. scoped (as it sits now) to 6.5, and also give me a much quicker pointing gun than the 22-inch barrel affords. That's still an option I am considering, but that gun right now shoots .5 MOA and I don't really want to mess with that just yet.

So... (drumroll please...) I took the plunge and bought the 7.62x39 Scout from Cabelas tonight. That thing drew a crowd in the Gun Library. Several folks said they had never seen one and agreed that it should be a very fun gun to shoot.

Sure enough, it's an Accustock. It also weighs in at 7.25 lbs without a scope! A beastly gun that might never get a scope. It points very well with the 20" barrel, and I'm a fan of the rear aperture sight. Someone must have taken that Accutrigger down as far as it will go too, since my scale puts it just below 2 lbs. of trigger pull.

Believe it or not, my Cabelas didn't have a SINGLE round of 7.62x39 in stock (despite having many boxes of peculiar and bizarre calibers on the shelves). They said someone came in a week ago and bought it all up. Oh well, thankfully the Academy that's half the distance from my house was very well stocked with the Russian round. I bought four types - Hornady steel case 123 gr. SST's (box of 50 for $23), Monarch 123 FMJ ($5/box!), Tula Ammo ($10/box) and some rather pricey Winchester Hog Hunter 123 grain soft point ammo.

When I got home, I got out my digital dial calipers and mic'd them all. The results surprised me quite a bit. The Hornady was as advertised at .310", as was the Tula Ammo - consistent with the Russian bores. And the Winchester Hog Hunter seemed to split the difference at .309". But the curious part was the $5/box Monarch steel case FMJ ammo. It is .308" !! I didn't expect that.

So tomorrow at the range, I'll have 4 brands and 3 diameters to test in that .308" Savage barrel. I'm going to shoot it at 50 yards with open sights and see what happens. Should be interesting. I'll post up what I find. I am hopeful that the .308 Monarch will make for a great plinking round, and the pricey Win. Hog Hunter will be an accurate hunting round. If that worked out, I'd be thrilled and I won't buy any reloading equipment for this caliber. Fingers crossed!

[Inebriated]

I have looked longingly at the Savage LWH. Very pricey, but I'm sure it's worth every penny. Haven't been able to put my hands on one yet though. At $1K with tax, I'm almost afraid to!

If I ever do get one, it will be in the .308 for sure. I've also thought of just hacking up my 11 to shed some weight. Cutting the barrel down from 22 to 18" and trimming the scope from the 14-oz. beast that's on there now to something in the 8-9 oz. range, and trimming a little from the stock. That would save me a pound of weight and take the rifle from 7.5 lbs. scoped (as it sits now) to 6.5, and also give me a much quicker pointing gun than the 22-inch barrel affords. That's still an option I am considering, but that gun right now shoots .5 MOA and I don't really want to mess with that just yet.

So... (drumroll please...) I took the plunge and bought the 7.62x39 Scout from Cabelas tonight. That thing drew a crowd in the Gun Library. Several folks said they had never seen one and agreed that it should be a very fun gun to shoot.

Sure enough, it's an Accustock. It also weighs in at 7.25 lbs without a scope! A beastly gun that might never get a scope. It points very well with the 20" barrel, and I'm a fan of the rear aperture sight. Someone must have taken that Accutrigger down as far as it will go too, since my scale puts it just below 2 lbs. of trigger pull.

Believe it or not, my Cabelas didn't have a SINGLE round of 7.62x39 in stock (despite having many boxes of peculiar and bizarre calibers on the shelves). They said someone came in a week ago and bought it all up. Oh well, thankfully the Academy that's half the distance from my house was very well stocked with the Russian round. I bought four types - Hornady steel case 123 gr. SST's (box of 50 for $23), Monarch 123 FMJ ($5/box!), Tula Ammo ($10/box) and some rather pricey Winchester Hog Hunter 123 grain soft point ammo.

When I got home, I got out my digital dial calipers and mic'd them all. The results surprised me quite a bit. The Hornady was as advertised at .310", as was the Tula Ammo - consistent with the Russian bores. And the Winchester Hog Hunter seemed to split the difference at .309". But the curious part was the $5/box Monarch steel case FMJ ammo. It is .308" !! I didn't expect that.

So tomorrow at the range, I'll have 4 brands and 3 diameters to test in that .308" Savage barrel. I'm going to shoot it at 50 yards with open sights and see what happens. Should be interesting. I'll post up what I find. I am hopeful that the .308 Monarch will make for a great plinking round, and the pricey Win. Hog Hunter will be an accurate hunting round. If that worked out, I'd be thrilled and I won't buy any reloading equipment for this caliber. Fingers crossed!

Awesome, congrats! Though, I notice a distinct lack of photos ;).

I look forward to seeing what you find with the different loads. Be sure to check out Federal's loads as well, they make a 7.62x39 Fusion and Soft Point load. Hornady is what stays in my AK's at the house, and they get around 2.5" at 100 yards, with irons or a red dot, so the Savage should do very well. And nothing wrong with sticking with irons... My .338 Win Mag Hog Hunter has been shot primarily with the irons.

And I know the LWH is a pricier rifle, I haven't gotten to hold one myself either, but if one needs a good-carrying rifle, it seems like a viable option. But you're right that you could get something similar with a little work on a standard 11 with some smart changes. I know how hard it can be to fool with an accurate rifle, though!

[Maine-iac]

Congrats on the new addition! I bet it will be fun to shoot. Keep us posted on which factory ammo it prefers. Also let us know what you decide as far as a scope. A fixed 4x tends to be light. If you decide to stick to open sights I bet removal of that scout rail will shed some weight. When you get down to it as long as it points and carries(aka balance) well you will not find it tiresome to carry in the woods. I have a couple of Savage 14 American Classics that you would swear are lighter than my Ruger 77's because they point that much better but on the scales they are almost exact. Newtosavage did Cabelas pull that for you from the Cabelas over hear in Maine? I am still interested in picking one up as a bad weather brush gun. It yours likes the factory stuff like Federal Fusion and Power Shok that would make my decision easier.

[Newtosavage]

Awesome, congrats! Though, I notice a distinct lack of photos .

Yea, sorry about that. I'll get them up asap. Had a 2 hr. drive to Cabelas after work, then waiting for the gun, then stopping on the way home for ammo. Didn't even get home until after 10:00. Might get to shoot it today a little bit.

I will eventually scope it with my Weaver 4x scout (only 9 ounces) and a set of Warne QD rings (probably as heavy as the scope!) to see if I prefer that setup vs. the open sights. I'm a bit surprised and even a little disappointed with how heavy the gun is. Was hoping it would be closer to 6.5 than 7.5 lbs, but it's pushing 7.5 without a scope. That's nearly as heavy as my model 11 with a 4-12 on it... you know, the one I don't want to carry all day.

Now, the scout does have the accustock which I'm sure adds 1/4 lb. of weight, and it has the front sight which probably makes up for the difference in barrel length from 22 to 20" with the 11 vs. the scout. Considering the length and weight of the barrel on this scout, it should for all practical purposes be a heck of a shooter.

If I stick with the irons, I'll drop the scout rail and it should be fine. I'm also going to put a lighter stock on it, since I'm not using it to shoot beyond 200 yards and would like to shorten it anyway so my daughter can shoot it comfortably. Another thing is that bolt handle. It's big and fat and feels great in the hand, but I'm going to put that on my .308 and put the lighter handle from that gun on the scout. Between the scout rail, bolt handle and the lighter stock, I'm sure I can get this down to about 6 3/4 lbs. - the same weight as my Model 94 Winchester with irons. And it will balance well for carrying.

So, that begs the question, if I already have a short-range deer gun that's lightweight and low recoil (the 30-30), why the Savage scout? Well, I can't get 20 rounds of ammo for $5 for the Winchester. LOL.


Newtosavage did Cabelas pull that for you from the Cabelas over hear in Maine?

Yes. They were fantastic. I found it in the gun library in Maine, and called them up. Said they would ship it to my "local" Cabelas for $25 and I could inspect it with no obligation to buy. That sounded perfect to me. 3 business days later, I got a call from the Cabelas here saying the gun was in and I could come look at it anytime I wanted. So I ran up there after work yesterday with my son and sure enough, there it sat waiting on me in the gun library. The young man working that gun library was most helpful. He and another salesman had their hands all over "my" gun too, since they had never seen one and were very curious about it.

I will report back on how it shoots each of the rounds I've bought for it (with pictures!). :D I'll run some other factory stuff through it as I get the chance, but really, I bought 2 boxes of Winchester brass case factory ammo specifically to harvest the brass so I can start reloading for the 7.62x39. As I said, this .308 bore will give me lots of good bullets to choose from, including the full range of 30-30 bullets designed to expand at slower velocities. In my mind, that's a big plus for this specific gun vs. the CZ 527. That, and the interchangeable components are why I decided to go ahead and buy the Savage scout. Otherwise, the CZ 527 is probably the gun I should have bought for a walking woods rifle. This one may end up more of a range plinker and occasional hunter, but that's fine too.

If I just don't reach for it often enough when I head to the woods, I'll probably make those mod's to my Model 11 .308 and get the weight on that gun down to under 7 lbs. Shouldn't be hard to do really, and will still be plenty useful out to 200-250 yards.

[Newtosavage]

Okay, had a chance to fire a few with the irons.

First impressions:

1) kicks more than I thought, but of course, not unbearable at all. Just more than I expected for a relatively heavy gun and a small round. Reminded me a lot of my Win. 30-30 actually. Probably a little less, but not much.

2) Iron sights were WAY off to start with, even though I bore sighted it in the garage last night. After a lot of adjustment, I was disappointed to discover the barrel is overrotated by just a hair, and the front sight is leaning to the Left when looking down the barrel. :( That really sucks. It's not what I was hoping for. I may send it back to Savage to see if they can fix that, but if it's overrotated, I'm not sure they can. Just one more reason to scope it I guess.

3) Accuracy was pretty amazing for an iron sighted gun. I shot it off sandbags, so the gun was steady, but seeing a 2" piece of tape over my bead at 80 yards is just about the limits of my eyesight. I'm not sure I can aim more precisely than I shot with some of those loads.

4) Accuracy: From bestt to worst, the .310" Hornady SST (steel case, 50 rd. box) was incredible. First three shots were touching and under an inch. I came back and put two more in that group. Both were high but still the best group of the four.

Next-best was the expensive Winchester hog hunter ammo ($23/box of 20). It was about what I'd expect for open sights, with around a 2" group at 80 yards. I'm sure with a scope, this will be very good hunting ammo out to 150 yards.

Third best was the Academy brand "Monarch" ammo. This is the cheapest ($5/box of 20) and actually had the smallest diameter bullet at .308". I shot two groups with this and the first three-shot group was close to an inch. The second, five-shot group was about 2.5" but still plenty good enough for a plinking round, and at least at that distance, close enough to the Hornady that I doubt I'd have to re-zero the rifle.

Worst of the bunch was the Tula ammo, but even it wasn't awful. Maybe 3" at 80 yards, half of which was probably my aiming error alone. Biggest issue with it and the Monarch was getting the bolt to eject the last round. In each case, the last round came out of the chamber but didn't get ejected. It would just sit on top of the magazine. :( The magazine that came with this gun looks brand new, so I wonder if it's the original or not. I don't think it is.

Going to throw the scout scope on it soon and take it to the range to see how it does out to 200 yards.

It has a very solid feel to it and balances and points very well. I can see this being a good brush gun for quick shots inside 100 yards. But I'm going to explore the accuracy of it with those Hornady SST's a little more, and see what I can wring out of it. I have a feeling I can get one-hole 100-yard groups with it if I have it set up correctly with a conventional scope. That would sure make for an inexpensive range gun for banging steel out to 300 yards.

[Newtosavage]

As for the photos guys (I'm new here) do you have to buy a membership to be able to add photos?

[Hotolds442]

The site doesn't have the ability to upload photos, you'll need to add them to a photobucket, Flickr, Picasa, etc. account and then link to your photos in the text body.
The following link gives some clarity to the process:
http://www.savageshooters.com/showthread.php?16607-The-ultimate-guide-to-posting-pictures-so-easy-a-caveman-can-do-it!

[Newtosavage]

Sorry about the photos guys. I'll figure something out.

For now, let me just say I love it when a plan comes together. :D

So the idea in the back of my mind when I first saw this Savage Scout was that between it and my current Model 11 in .308, I would have enough parts to make the two rifles I really wanted - a 300+ yard range/long distance hunting gun, and 2) a lightweight, light recoiling walking woods rifle, possibly in a scout formation with an effective range on deer to 200 yards.

I think I'm going to get both out of this deal. Here's how...

1st. Swap stocks. My model 11 was the scoped package with the lightweight plastic stock and Axis magazine. I knew that stock would have to be much lighter than the Accustock that came with the scout. And it was. A full pound lighter! So the first thing I did when I got home today was swap out the stocks and the bottom magazine cover (metal on the Scout Accustock magazine, plastic on the 11 magazine). This dropped my Scout from 7 1/4 lbs. to just over 6 1/4 lbs. alone. Next was swapping the bolt handle. The scout, for some odd reason, came with an oversized bolt handle that was just unneeded weight on a hunting rifle, but would be useful on my long-range .308, so those got swapped. There goes another 2 oz. on the scout, and now we're down to 6 lbs. 2 oz. Finally, I discovered I could actually remove the front sight (so I did) and then the rear sight. There goes three ounces. So now I'm down below 6 lbs.! Since my Weaver 4x Scout is one of the lightest scopes made at just 9 ounces, I decided to leave the scout rail on the rifle and mount that Weaver scout with Aluminum rings and see how it did at the range. Final rifle configuration with stock 20" barrel is 6 3/4 lbs. - a whole pound lighter than my .308 and with a way to grasp it in the middle which should prove useful when carrying through the woods and brush. And it points like a dream.

So, how does it shoot? Fantastic.

With the 4x Scout scope mounted, and from a rest, I managed 2" 5-shot groups with both the TulAmmo and Monarch surplus ammo at 100 yards, and just 1" with the Hornady and Winchester. At 200 yards, the Hornady and Winchester really shined, with both falling into the same sub-2" group (7 shots) at that distance. I was blown away as shot after shot kept dropping into that group. It didn't matter if I was shooting the Winchester Hog hunter soft points or the Hornady steel case SST's. They grouped superbly.

I left the range with a 150-yard zero, with my rounds impacting 2.5" high at 100 yards and 2.5" low at 200 - a very useful arrangement. And being able to use those mid-priced Hornady steel case SST's for practice (or pigs) and the Winchester soft points for deer hunting is really more than I could ever ask for.

Incidentally, in case anyone is keeping track, those two bullets are the farthest apart in diameter, with the SST's at .310" and the Winchester at .308" by my calipers. Both the surplus brands were in-between at .309, but the gun didn't seem to care. I never would have thought that the Hornady and Winchester would drop in the same sub-MOA group at 200 yards but they sure did.

So now I have a easy to carry, quick pointing 7.62x39 bolt action that shoots sub-MOA (even with budget ammo) and has a 20" barrel and an overall length of 40".

Only negative I found at all today was the extractor not wanting to play well with the steel cased ammo. Esp. the last round. Might be a magazine issue, or it might need a new extractor, but I'll get to the bottom of it soon. Considering the way this gun points, carries and shoots, it will be worth putting some time into to fine-tune some of the function issues.

Now, on the project #2 which is inletting that Accustock to accept my model 11 .308 action. That's on tap for tomorrow.

[Ol' BW]

I've read this thread and I wish that I would have chimed in earlier. I could have eased your mind a bit about bore size compared to bullet diameter. I have shot .311 thru a 308 bore and 308 thru a .311 bore with no adverse effects. Bullets in 308 are still very accurate out of a 311 barrel. I would say they are pretty close to interchangeable although as you said a lot more available in 308.

Also, as far as handloading for the 7.62x39, in my opinion that is the way to go as far as performance ammo. Take a look at this article by Paco Kelly:

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/762x39.htm

I'm glad you found a rifle combination that works for you, especially in 7.62x39! That's one of my favorite cartridges!
BW

[Newtosavage]

Thanks Ol BW. Apparently the are interchangeable if both the Hornady and Winchesters will shoot into the same sub-MOA group at 200 yards!

I will be handloading once I get a good supply of brass going. Looking forward to the accuracy I can achieve with hand loads!

So, the transformation of both my Savage rifles is now complete!

The 7.62x39 Scout got the "hunter" accutrigger, lightweight stock, lightweight bolt handle and new extractor from the Model 11. Finished weight with scope and sling is an even 7 lbs.

The Model 11 got the "target" accutrigger (adjustable down to 1 lb.), the Accustock and bottom metal, the heavy bolt handle, and for now, the old extractor from the Scout. Finished weight with scope and sling is 9 lbs.

I have to say, the way my 7.62x39 scout is set up now is probably how they should have built it in the first place. Very light and quick pointing. A real pleasure to carry, even with the 4x scope on it. I'm not sure what they were thinking by putting a 2.5 lb. Accustock and real bottom metal (even a metal magazine bottom) on that gun. It was 7 1/4 lbs. without a scope when I picked it up from Cabelas! That's not really scout-like IMO.

Now off to the range again for one last check on both rifles, then to the woods tomorrow.

I promise I'll get photos up eventually.

[Newtosavage]

BW, that was a fun read. I'm an "old levergun nut" too (owned my Win. 30-30 for 30 years this Christmas, in fact) so that is my standard in quick pointing, easy carrying deer rifles. After reconfiguring my Savage Scout, it feels, in the hand, much like my Win 94, and I love that. It also comes to my shoulder and points just as quickly, and I love that too.

So, it's a little early to say since I've only owned this gun a few days, but I think the answer to my first question is this is a gun I'm going to love owning.

I'll also add that I have already seen the logic in, and have been rewarded by being the owner of two Savage "10/110" rifles. I love the modular, interchangeable nature of these guns. I never could have made the transformation I just completed with any other bolt gun I know of.

[Ol' BW]

Yep you should be able to use Paco's line of thinking in the Savage. I believe the 7.62x39 is the ultimate cartridge for a light handy bolt action.

The Savage 10/110 platform is by far the most versatile platform available. People want to talk about AR's being modular and versatile and I guess that is correct when talking about tactical crap, but you can't change to any cartridge like a Savage can.

Savage is like the V-8 Chevy small block of the gun world!

BW

[Newtosavage]

I believe the 7.62x39 is the ultimate cartridge for a light handy bolt action.

I'm starting to believe this is true. If the 30-30 came in a bolt action, I'd own one of those, but short of that, this Savage scout is pretty fantastic. A buddy of mine who has a Savage stainless in 6.5CM came to the range with me this evening, and as soon as he was done verifying his scope settings at 200 and 300 yards, he couldn't wait to shoot that 7.62x39 scout. He blew through a whole box of the Monarch (russian) ammo in short order, and then declared that he "must have one of those rifles." LOL.

I wished him luck, since even if he finds one, he won't have all the parts to drop the weight of it down below 7 lbs. scoped like I did. But he seems undeterred. I think I am going to steer him toward the CZ 527 since he says he may want a conventional scope vs. the scout, but he did enjoy shooting the scout scope a lot too.

The way I have it set up, this thing handles like a dream. I thought I'd gotten on top of the extractor issue, but was having trouble with the steel cased ammo again today at the range, so as soon as the hunting season is over, I'm going to call Savage up and see if they can help me on this. The feeding/ejection issue is the only thing keeping this rifle from being possibly the most fun gun I've had to shoot since getting my 30-30 in 1985. And that's saying quite a bit considering how long I've kept that gun and how many rounds I've run through it.

As for the .308, well I think I may have screwed up a good thing. LOL. Apparently that barrel and action actually liked that cheap plastic stock better than it does the Accustock. Go figure. So it's back to the drawing board for that gun. Not sure what happened or why, but I'll figure it out eventually.

[Ol' BW]

Well there are always people selling their stocks on the classifieds pretty cheap. You could buy another for the 7.82x39 and put this one back on your original rifle.

I have a CZ 527 and they are great guns! The 94 is truly in a class all by itself.

BW

[Newtosavage]

Thinking about it. I didn't really like the flex on that XP stock on the .308, but for the 7.62 scout, it works perfectly. I have my eye on a couple other stock options, so there may be an Accustock with all the bottom metal available soon. LOL. First I need to figure out what kind of gun my .308 model 11 is going to be. A range gun, or my "heavy" hunting gun. I have plenty of time to decide however, as the new-to-me "russian scout" will be by my side for the rest of my deer season.

[Inebriated]

For photos, you can get a free account with Imgur, and post direct links to the photos. Same with Flickr, though Flickr requires a Yahoo email.

Anyway, sounds like a great buy, man, and the accuracy you're getting is stellar. To be honest, this thread got me excited about finishing up two of my Savages. I was scrambling to get them ready for deer season, and got them workable just in time. Now I have some stuff left to do, and I'm feeling pretty motivated about it.

[Newtosavage]

When I get time, I'll look into the photo-hosting site.

Spent the weekend in the deer woods with the scout rifle and it's exactly what I was looking for in a walking woods rifle. Not only is it a full pound lighter than my .308 (after stealing the lightweight parts from my model 11), being able to carry it around the action reminds me of my Win94 and is super handy. Haven't shot a deer with it yet, but when I'm hunting places where the shots will be inside 150 yards, I will be reaching for the scout for sure.

[Newtosavage]

Had a chance to shoot some feral pigs with the gun yesterday. Easy stalk into the wind and prone 80-yard broadside shot for the first sow. I intentionally waited until she turned broadside and shot her behind the shoulder just to see how the mid-priced Hornady SST's would perform. Blew through her like butter, and she wasn't a small sow (estimate 150-175#). She ran in a 30-yard circle then died within about 10 yards of where she was hit. I'm sure a shoulder shot would have anchored her right there on the spot, but I wanted to see what kind of expansion I'd get with that 123-grain SST, since this particular rifle just loves that round. I'm getting consistent MOA groups out to 200 yards with it.

The next hog - an even bigger sow - offered me a quartering-to shot, so I aimed for the base of the neck and dropped her right where she stood. She was about 200 lbs. and definitely pregnant, so I likely killed 8 or 10 pigs with that one shot. She never got up. Perfect performance, albeit from a 50-yard shot.

Third pig was smaller and running away, but the round still caught it and dropped it at about 100 yards.

After surveying the damage, I decided to drop my zero from 175 to exactly 150 yards since the first shot was a little high. That should put me about 1.5" high at 100, which I can live with. I can't say enough about how well that Hornady steel-case SST ammo is performing. Very accurate for a factory load, and it appears that SST 123-grain bullet is going to make a good hunting round. I also like the fact that I can order 50-round boxes online for just $34 shipped.

And despite being the largest diameter bullet I've tried so far (.310 by my measurement) it really shoots well out of what's said to be a .308" bore on that Savage. It's working, so I'm not going to try and fix it anymore.

One thought I had getting this rifle was that I wanted something I could shoot lower priced factory ammo through, with decent accuracy. I'm already loading for my .308 and didn't really want a 2nd caliber to load for. It appears I got what I was hoping for, with this Savage scout consistently shooting a very well-priced, good quality factory hunting load, into 1.5" groups at 150 yards.

All this in a very light and compact 6 3/4 lb. hunting rifle with a 4x scope. What's not to like about that?

I was afraid I would regret choosing this gun over the CZ 527, but I have no regrets. After carrying this gun all weekend in the woods, and now cleanly taking three good-sized pigs with it, I am not missing that CZ at all. In fact, I am not sure I would have been as thrilled to take that pretty walnut stocked gun into some of the places I took this rifle over the past few days. But with a cheap and light plastic stock, my Savage scout is ideal for taking lots of abuse in the field.

[Newtosavage]

Incidentally, this must be one obscure Savage rifle, since when I type in the serial # on the parts finder, half the diagram is incorrect. Wrong barrel, wrong recoil lug, wrong magazine, wrong sight. LOL. <sigh>

Gotta love that small-shop feel that Savage gives you though.

[Hotolds442]

Incidentally, this must be one obscure Savage rifle, since when I type in the serial # on the parts finder, half the diagram is incorrect. Wrong barrel, wrong recoil lug, wrong magazine, wrong sight. LOL. <sigh>

Gotta love that small-shop feel that Savage gives you though.
Sometimes you gotta click on the accessories tab in order to see the specialized goodies that were added to the generic schematic diagram.