Savage model 11/111 Trophy Hunter XP 223 Accuracy problems/questions

[ap11]

Hello all,

I have a Savage Model 11/111 Trophy Hunter XP package in 223. It has a 22 inch barrel with a 1x9 twist and Nikon BDC reticle scope.

In trying out different factory ammo to find the best match for the gun, I have had, at least to me, some unusual results. I am trying to understand whether my results normal, or whether I might have a problem with the gun or scope.

So, my primary concern is that different ammo is grouping much farther apart than I would consider normal. However, I am mostly new to the 223 platform, so maybe what I consider normal for other calibers doesn't apply exactly the same for 223. For example, at 60-70 yards, one type of ammo (say 55gr Hornady Varmint Express) the center of the group will be a full 5 inches to the left of AE 223 55gr FMJ.

In another example, shooting at about 90 yards, I dialed in 69 grain Federal Premium Match BTHP and was consistently shooting 2-3 inch groups. Not great, but fully realize that was mostly my shooting. Anyway, without adjusting scope, I shot multiple other different types of ammo (all 50-69 gr). Some would group better than others, but the centers of the groups themselves where sometimes 5-6 inches left, high and left, and in one case 5-6 inches right of where the 69 gr Federals were.

For comparison, I have an AR in 223 with a 16 inch barrel with a 1 x 7 twist. Everything I shot, from 50 gr up to 77 gr showed up in the same general area on the target. Sure, some grouped better than others, and the centers of the groups differed as much as a few inches, but all what I would consider normal.

One more thing. 62 gr Federal Fusions shoot for crap out of the Savage. I even have clear evidence that they are keyholing at 60 yards, even though in a different session at 100 yards the holes look normal. However, my target at 60 yards was cardboard backed, and my 100 yard target was not, if that makes a difference. Also, at 100 yards I would have large groups with some definite flyers that weren't my bad shooting. None of the other ammo showed any keyholing at any distance or target.

I would appreciate any thoughts anyone has on this issue. Especially anyone who has the exact some gun. It's making me crazy.

Thanks,

Alan

[darkker]

Few things for you.
Depending upon speed, the 77gr bullets may or may not stabilize. But they will gain stability as they travel, also known as going to sleep. Stability is based upon length and RPM, bullet weight only as a side effect and dependant upon construction.

The fact that they all group differently is due to harmonics, one of the reasons there is no single "load" that will work for everyone. How the gun recoils, barrel stress, etc. First I would make sure things are tight, and throw that tin-can scope in the ocean. FWIW, I've NEVER had luck with ANY fusion ammo in any rifle.

[olddav]

Find the ammo that's shoots the best then shoot that ammo exclusively. Every gun I have owned like one bullet above all others. My 30.06 rifle liked Federal PowerShok 150 grain bullets so that is what I loaded in it. With those bullets I had confidence that I would hit what ever I aimed at. If I switched to another bullet weight or a different brand of ammo everything went south and quickly. So again I encourage you to lock on to the ammo your rifle shoots best and do not deviate from it.
Good Luck and a very Merry Christmas to ya!

[devildogandboy]

as darkker said, make sure things are tight. new rifles seem to hav e problems with lose scope mounts, rings and action screw not being properly torqued from the factory. check all these first and try again. my 223 liked the 60-69 grain bullets best.

also make sure your barrel is free floated, not touching anywhere.

Bruce

[jfksc]

My 110 started out as the xp package gun. Results were not as dramatic as what you're describing but I did have some inconsistent accuracy at first. I'd tighten and/or replace the rings. I swapped the factory rings out for burris signature z rings and it helped a lot. I now have Talleys on it. As others have said find a type of ammo it likes and stick with that. I have one type of lead ammo my rifle likes and the have to shoot copper (barnes ttsx) cause in my part of Ca it's required to hunt. Fortunately my rifle loves the copper and it shoots better than any lead I've ever fed it.

[J.Baker]

As jfksc noted, check all your scope mounts to ensure they're good and tight. Package rifles are notorious for having them not be very tight from the factory.

One thing you didn't mention is how you are shooting and what you're shooting off of. Is this off-hand? Prone? Kneeling or sitting? From a bench? What kind of rest/bags? If you're shooting from an inconsistent/unsteady platform it's very hard to get any kind of consistency.

If those two things check out then I would suspect the scope went south. These package gun scopes are extremely cheap (cost for Savage is probably only $20-30) so they're not anywhere near what one would consider "typical" Nikon build quality as Nikon builds them to meet the price Savage is willing to pay. Could be the internals came loose and it's allowing the erector to jump around causing the large shift in POI. Best thing to do would be to replace it with a quality scope.

[ap11]

Thanks to all for the comments. One of the first things that I did with the gun was put loctite blue on all the scope screws as they did seem a little loose after the first shooting session. After that it has stayed nice and tight. Maybe I screwed them back in too tight? I tried not to, but I read a post somewhere that mentioned making sure that one of the scope mount screws wasn't screwed in too far and touching the barrel, although I'm not exactly sure how to check that. I can pass a piece of paper between the barrel and the forestock, so the barrel seems to be free floated like it should.

Also, I do understand that I should pick the best ammo for the gun and stick with it. I know that different bullet designs, weights, loads, etc. will shoot differently. However, I guess I should have clarified in my original post that my main concern was not that the different ammo grouped differently, it was that the groups for the different ammo were so far apart. I can shoot 150 gr and 180 grain out of my 30-06 at 100 yards and the groups will have centers no more than an inch or two from each other. The fact that my 223 Savage was showing groups with centers 5-6 inches apart depending on the ammo was what was really throwing me.

Concerning how I am shooting and what from, my answer would be always from a rest, with not so great shooting. I'm continually working to improve my setup and technique. However, regardless of my shooting and setup, I can say with certainty that different ammo groups in the same location on the targets. Meaning, if I shoot three different kinds of ammo, each specific kind will show up in the same general location on the target every time. It's just the fact the centers of those groups are so far apart that really confuses me. I've never had such drastic differences between ammo types for any other gun/caliber, but maybe this is the norm for this gun/caliber and I am just worrying about nothing. But I would really like to hear from other folks with the same exact gun and their experiences.

[Exracer]

I had the same model about a year ago. I have been reloading 223 for my AR previously and continued with some tweaking some recipes..It would group under 1" at 100yds and about 1 1/2" at 300yds..Now the issue I had was that about third or fourth round started having group open up by at least another 1-1 1/2"at 300yds..Small sport barrel gets hot quick and moves around..Only fac ammo that I tried was Hornady Superformance 53gr varmint..It will make it shoot small groups. Not as good as hand loads but pretty good..Cost is about a buck a round..save your brass as one day you might reload and costs advg about .35 to .50 round..I sold it couple months later and bought an 11VT on sale at Dicks sporting goods..It has larger varmint style barrel and not effected as much when hot..It will shoot 1/2 MOA 6 shots in a row..Easily take out golf balls at 300yds...I limit barrel temp to under 118* MAX..I also agree with Darkker about your scope..Sell it to someone with a pellet or BB gun..My scope for my distances is 6.5X24X44- 1/8moa clicks and clear lens..I can see bullet holes in splatter targets at 300yds..Hope this helps you some..Ex.

[GaCop]

Bottom line is, it's pure luck to get different brands of ammunition and bullet weights to shoot close to point of aim it can happen but not very often. Find a brand of ammunition and bullet weight that is the most accurate in your rifle and stick with it. If you want to get the absolute best accuracy from your rifle, you should try handloading in the future.