.223 consistancy question..

[mbohuntr]

I recently bought a 2003 model 10, no accu-trigger, assuming a 1-9 twist. Using factory 55gr Winchester ammo, and a Nikon pro with a BDC. I was having problems with flyers. 2-3 shots thumbnail sized, then a few flyers anywhere from 1" - 4" off at 100 yds. I switched to a Vortex HS-T 24 power to try that and maybe eliminate parallax. Same problem. Then a friend let me try some ar223 ammo. 55gr, FMJ
Group sizes went way down, shot my first sub MOA at 200 yds. A week later bought more ar223, same problem! Couldn't group at all at 100. Rifle cleaned between scope changes, not cleaned between ar223 sessions, probably 50-70 rounds fired. Cannot figure why rifle will shoot 5-10 rounds dead on with tiny groups, then all over the place???? Scope is properly torqued at 16 in/lbs.


' Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[JW]

Quote: Cannot figure why rifle will shoot 5-10 rounds dead on with tiny groups, then all over the place???? Scope is properly torqued at 16 in/lbs.

Are you sure the barrel is floated? Might be touching after it warms up
Jack

[mbohuntr]

Quote: Cannot figure why rifle will shoot 5-10 rounds dead on with tiny groups, then all over the place???? Scope is properly torqued at 16 in/lbs.

Are you sure the barrel is floated? Might be touching after it warms up
Jack

I thought of that... The rifle did seem to settle down a bit after it got warm (just warm to the touch) I ran a dollar bill all the way around the barrel up to the nutwith no obstructions. If the barrel was shot out, the groups would be centered but large, right?

I'm thinking about taking the scope and mounts completely off and re-mount with some Loctite blue.... Perhaps the heating and cooling of the barrel has loosened something...

[darkker]

. If the barrel was shot out, the groups would be centered but large, right?


No. If the barrel is "shot out" all bets are off. What is shot out? How does your crown look? How does the throat look? Please tell me you have shot something other than 55gr ammo, especially other than fmj's..? Which twist is this barrel?

[mbohuntr]

No. If the barrel is "shot out" all bets are off. What is shot out? How does your crown look? How does the throat look? Please tell me you have shot something other than 55gr ammo, especially other than fmj's..? Which twist is this barrel?

Barrel looked ok with a flashlight, that's all I had to go with when I bought it from Gander (Used) Rifling looked clean and sharp to me, but I have no experience doing inspections.

Yes, all I have shot were 55 grains as I figured they were a good mid point for what I think is a 1/9 twist. Shooting both 55 gr. SP and FMJ.

[shagerott]

I have a 11 Trophy Hunter. It hates 55gr fmj. Seems to like 40gr V-Max. I got some 53gr V-Max to try hearing some 9 twist like them. Mine is a sporter barrel and I have the same results you are getting.

I only tested to 100 yards but 55 fmj go to shotgun pattern in about 5 shots letting the barrel get only warm. 400 rounds later, still the same. I hoped it would settle in.

[mbohuntr]

I have a 11 Trophy Hunter. It hates 55gr fmj. Seems to like 40gr V-Max. I got some 53gr V-Max to try hearing some 9 twist like them. Mine is a sporter barrel and I have the same results you are getting.

I only tested to 100 yards but 55 fmj go to shotgun pattern in about 5 shots letting the barrel get only warm. 400 rounds later, still the same. I hoped it would settle in.

That's actually good news, maybe I'll try some different weights before I spend more money....thanks!

[thatguyshm]

Seems the problem right now is most bulk ammo is 2-3 MOA right now. The manufacturers take the fact that military grade rifles are right around there so the quality doesn't need to be much else. Try a bit better ammo that isn't made to sell quickly at 8 bucks a 20. Just my thoughts on it. I have several black rifles and a Rem 700 sps tac in 223. Hates federal bulk 55gr, but my hand loads all print less then an inch for ten shot groups. 40gr up to 68gr.

Be careful about bulk 556, make sure you can shoot 556 in your chamber. I'm willing to bet it's a 223 Rem, not a wylde.

Just my two cents.

[shagerott]

Agree.... Maybe that's the reason. I did pull down some 55gr to check powder variation. One box was consistent, then another was a couple grains of variation.

[darkker]

Agree.... Maybe that's the reason. I did pull down some 55gr to check powder variation. One box was consistent, then another was a couple grains of variation.

Factories don't load in grains, they load volume, like CC's. Due to the normal BD variations you will never have the same weight, just the same volume.

[Fotheringill]

Before pulling my hair out, I would swap out your scope and mounts for a different set on a different gun where there are no known problems. Torque to the specs given by the mount maker, which I would bet is 15-18 in/lbs.

[mbohuntr]

Thanks everyone! Gonna be away till after Xmas, then if we are still above freezing here will keep investigating....

[Texas10]

There are numerous threads on this site regarding torque of action screws and how they effect accuracy on a Savage. My model 12 in 223 is very sensitive to torque on rear action screw (the one at the FRONT of the trigger guard). Not sure if yours has a third action screw or not, but be careful not to try to torque the rear trigger guard screw. It's not made to be torqued and will strip out if overtightened.

Q: Are you seeing a cold, clean barrel shooting tight groups, and then as the barrel warms groups start to go wild?

My torque sequence is to loosen both screws, set the rifle butt on the ground/floor, push down on the barrel and tighten the front action screw to about 45 INCH pounds ( about 4 foot pounds) and then tighten the rear screw to about 5 inch pounds. Shoot 5 or so rounds to warm the barrel and notice group size starting to wander as the barrel warms. Tighten the rear screw another 5 inch pounds and repeat the process. I have noticed that once an optimum torque is reached, groups will begin to widen again as torque is increased further, so I back if off and restart the process to fine tune. I believe book torque for the rear action screw is a maximum of 25 inch pounds, so be careful about over torquing.

You may need to repeat this process for change of seasons if you live in an area of large seasonal temperature swings.

Once I have found the right torque on my rear action screw, I mark the bold head with a sharpie so I know if it has moved.

[mbohuntr]

DING! DING! DING! We have a winner..... I read that a copper fouled barrel might give random flyers several inches off, so I bought some Bore scrubber and gave it 3 complete cleanings... WOW! Back to sub MOA @ 100 yds, and LOVES the 55gr sp's! Groups opened up a bit after several different types of ammo, so I let the barrel cool to ambient, swabbed and ran dry patches till clean and BINGO! Held zero and sub MOA!

THANKS EVERYONE!

[JW]

Great
Glad you got it going your way
Jack

[GaCop]

I love a happy ending! :sorrow: