Throat life rumors true about wsm?

[stomp442]

Ill tell you how it does, and you wont like what i said. Its apperent to me at least that most of the talk around here is just that (talk).
First off real bc numbers are velocity related and not what somebody says they are and that includes people like Litz.
Thats why some bullet makers like Cutting Edge for example dont advertise bc numbers.
Certainly most cartridges can be shot out to distances like 12 and 1500 yds. But actually hitting something at those distances in another story.
Yes kills at extreme ranges are (possible if) and thats a very large if, the animal is hit in a very vital spot.
I have been using a 7x300 wby for over 40 years. I get over 3300 fps using a 162 gr Hornady. And yes the 162 is a flatter shooting bullet from my gun
than the 180 Berger at 1200 yds. I made my longest kill on a deer with that gun at 1200 + yds. That said i personaly will never again attempt another shot at that
distance with any 7mm. Come here to n. c. PA during buck season and i will personaly introduce you to lots of serious long range hunters over the coarse of
1 day. None will be using a 6.5 in any configuration and less and less are using 7mms all the time. For serious hunting at real distance go 30 cal at least with heavy bullets.
The 308 you have will do everything your talking about anyway. At least out to the distances your talking about.

Flatter I can believe, but it's not packing the energy or providing the wind drift the 180 is which is what is really important in long range hunting. Speaking of just talking it has been scientifically proven, that BC, when measured properly like using the G7 standard when using boat tail and VLD style bullets is NOT velocity dependant and why different standards for measuring were created. The BC of your 230 gr .30 cal bullet is the same at 1500 fps as it is at 3000 fps. I will not argue that the big .30's are better ballistically but I can also say without a shadow of a doubt that the same buck shot at the same 1200 yards and hit in the vitals with a 6.5 will die just as ethically and cleanly as the one shot with a .30cal. I have done it.

[lrshooting]

Alright, as a general reply, we really shouldn't be taking shots that long period. Everybody has good points, but shooting big game at ranges further than REQUIRED is not really what kind of things we should be doing as resPonsible hunters. Small game and predators are different story in some respects since you are using such high energy projectiles on small animals. Doesn't matter where you hit them, a fast large projectile will blow them apart. I know I'm young, but sound logic, no?

Yobuck, the reason I was deciding on on another cartridge is because I want to get something that I will bring out the maximum accuracy and range from a short action. Sure, I might hunt with it some and will probably put it on for coyote because if the ranges involved, but other wise the 308 will be in for deer season.

I just want to keep the first gun Ive built myself with no gunsmith involved, yet still be able to have something that can reach out and touch steel or paper at apparently ranges even further then 1500 yards. I really messed up getting a short action to build on, but it's what I have and I can't change it. That's why ive been deciding between wsm and saum which really kind of max out what you can get out of a short action. Seems like 6.5 are good to, yet even those for it suggest 7mm for going the furthest. That 195 eol Berger will probably out perform any 30 cal bullet you would put in a short action magnum that will still have respectable velocity.

Possibly I'm real full of crap and I don't understand what I'm talking about, but I'm trying. Definitely learning a ton from this thread.

[stomp442]

So I have a question. Have you done any long range shooting before and know that you can in fact shoot the distances you are describing? There is nothing wrong with limiting your ranges to someting more manageable with a cartridge that fits the platform. The big heavy bullets out of the .308 like 185's and higher is a very capable cartridge out to 1000 easily and even further once you get a little practice under your belt. I would suggest using your current action as more of a learning platform and build a new rig for the extreme long range work you are wanting to do latter on. Save the money you would spend on bullets, powder, dies and a new barrel and buy bullets and powder for the .308. Practice, practice and practice then move up into a better platform and cartridge as time and money allows.

[lrshooting]

So I have a question. Have you done any long range shooting before and know that you can in fact shoot the distances you are describing? There is nothing wrong with limiting your ranges to someting more manageable with a cartridge that fits the platform. The big heavy bullets out of the .308 like 185's and higher is a very capable cartridge out to 1000 easily and even further once you get a little practice under your belt. I would suggest using your current action as more of a learning platform and build a new rig for the extreme long range work you are wanting to do latter on. Save the money you would spend on bullets, powder, dies and a new barrel and buy bullets and powder for the .308. Practice, practice and practice then move up into a better platform and cartridge as time and money allows.

I have some, I just don't have a round configuration right now that I can reach out and touch a long way. Basically I don't go any further than 900-1000 yards. I then decided to build up my 308 with a a5 stock, bottom metal, and shilen barrel because let's face it, the budget end of savage rifles just can't compete at real long ranges with what they come with. Sub moa, yea, but not really good id you shoot much.

[yobuck]

Well an airplane ticket is cheaper than building a gun. Especially the wrong gun. If your interested, i will email you pictures of what we can do from
my front yard. No bs just in fact what we do and why i have the opinions i have. You pick the gun and shoot it at what ever distance you want out to 2 miles.
I can (guarantee) you that on many days you wont even see the bullet hits at 1500 yds with even the 30 cals let alone 6.5s or 7mms.
So forget shooting at 1500 yds with what your talking about doing. Id either be selling or sitting on the action and sticking with the 308.
Can you believe 50 years ago the 6.5 was the hottest long range cartridge on the planet? Thats simply because no good bullets existed for any others.
But when that changed, guess what? Guys rebarreled about as fast as rats leave a sinking ship.

[stomp442]

I guess that explains why 6.5's are more popular now than they have ever been.

[darkker]

There was a thing posted in the first page that I thought was funny. The 7mm is better when shooting the exact same bullet.... NO 7mm will be accurate shooting a 6.5mm bullet :)

None the less, this whole notion of "Accuracy at distance" is generally a farce anywho. I do shoot to a mile with my 308, and recently with my Creedmoor. If you use certain calculators that give an indication of hit probability, you are lead to believe that "faster is better". While as a generality, that is true; it isn't the whole story. Because the G1 BC is very much tied to steps in velocity, it is important. The G7 which is MUCH more accurate when comparing current match type bullets, is not tied in the same mannor.
The real issue comes from the tail angles and the CG/CP, that's Center of Gravity/Center of Pressure. Many bullets which advertise super swinging sexy BC numbers, have a tail angle that allows such, and VERY long noses. The problems arises from both areas. While for example a 13 degree tail angle will give an amazing BC number, such as the old Sierra 168gr 30-cal, it will assure that the bullet will not safely cross the Trans-Sonic zone. This has been thoroughly documented by Dr. McCoy in his ballistics book, and very long ago experienced at Camp Perry. The Military didn't like that their super-duper awesome marksmen were getting their pants pulled down by the civilians and gave Sierra a pile of Equiptment and money to solve the issue. They looked at the older 173gr bullet and did mountains of testing to conjour-up the 175 SMK. The very Un-sexy BC afforded by the 9 degree tail angle, also gave assured trans-sonic survival. That bullet will stay point forward longer than most of us will.

The CG/CP issue plays into this as precession begins to grab a hold of the bullet. With super long noses, the leverage applied to the nose will cause the bullet to flop ends. No bueno for BC, nor for continued stability on it's trajectory.
I just got done testing the garbage put out about the new FlatLine bullets. While I have only debunked the BS about the loading claims surrounding them, and pressure tested to confirm; I have yet had a chance to also test the Trans-sonic stability.
IF you can keep a bullet super-sonic farther due to the BC, then bully for you. But if you cannot, then all the BC in the world won't save you from tumbling; thus no "better" than a less sexy bullet.

As long as you don't have a tin-can for a scope with no adjustment, there are few who can't adjust for a lower BC bullet. I have a $230 scope with as much adjustment as most of the NightFarce scope lines, so it isn't like the average shmoe can't afford glass that will accomodate them to shooting very long distances.

In the end, skill and practice is what will allow you to do something with repeatable accuracy, not simply buying the popular components.

[lrshooting]

There was a thing posted in the first page that I thought was funny. The 7mm is better when shooting the exact same bullet.... NO 7mm will be accurate shooting a 6.5mm bullet :)

None the less, this whole notion of "Accuracy at distance" is generally a farce anywho. I do shoot to a mile with my 308, and recently with my Creedmoor. If you use certain calculators that give an indication of hit probability, you are lead to believe that "faster is better". While as a generality, that is true; it isn't the whole story. Because the G1 BC is very much tied to steps in velocity, it is important. The G7 which is MUCH more accurate when comparing current match type bullets, is not tied in the same mannor.
The real issue comes from the tail angles and the CG/CP, that's Center of Gravity/Center of Pressure. Many bullets which advertise super swinging sexy BC numbers, have a tail angle that allows such, and VERY long noses. The problems arises from both areas. While for example a 13 degree tail angle will give an amazing BC number, such as the old Sierra 168gr 30-cal, it will assure that the bullet will not safely cross the Trans-Sonic zone. This has been thoroughly documented by Dr. McCoy in his ballistics book, and very long ago experienced at Camp Perry. The Military didn't like that their super-duper awesome marksmen were getting their pants pulled down by the civilians and gave Sierra a pile of Equiptment and money to solve the issue. They looked at the older 173gr bullet and did mountains of testing to conjour-up the 175 SMK. The very Un-sexy BC afforded by the 9 degree tail angle, also gave assured trans-sonic survival. That bullet will stay point forward longer than most of us will.

The CG/CP issue plays into this as precession begins to grab a hold of the bullet. With super long noses, the leverage applied to the nose will cause the bullet to flop ends. No bueno for BC, nor for continued stability on it's trajectory.
I just got done testing the garbage put out about the new FlatLine bullets. While I have only debunked the BS about the loading claims surrounding them, and pressure tested to confirm; I have yet had a chance to also test the Trans-sonic stability.
IF you can keep a bullet super-sonic farther due to the BC, then bully for you. But if you cannot, then all the BC in the world won't save you from tumbling; thus no "better" than a less sexy bullet.

As long as you don't have a tin-can for a scope with no adjustment, there are few who can't adjust for a lower BC bullet. I have a $230 scope with as much adjustment as most of the NightFarce scope lines, so it isn't like the average shmoe can't afford glass that will accomodate them to shooting very long distances.

In the end, skill and practice is what will allow you to do something with repeatable accuracy, not simply buying the popular components.

Thank you. Lengthy, wordy, but it's more fact then opinion it at least researched and that is worth something.

[yobuck]

The instant the bullet leaves the barrel is the same instant the shooter has lost all control over where it ends up. Lets not forget that.
As for shooting small cartridges like a 308 or a 6.5 at a mile with any degree of accuracy on a consistant basis is simply hogwash.
And its also hogwash at 1500 yds and even 1200 on a consistant bases.
In fairness, certainly there will some differences due to location across the country. A 1500' elevation with a 60% humidity factor
will require more added elevation than an area with 5000' elevation and 10% humidity for sure. But it wont be night and day differences either.
Certainly there are some excellant 6.5 cartridges available and also 7mm. And ive never even implied otherwise.
But at the distances being discussed here they lack badly, and especially when compared to larger cartridges.
And admittedly even those give very diminishing returns on the investment.
When some of these newer 338 Lapua owners start stretching them out for distance there will be some dissapointments for sure.

[FW Conch]

^^ Very well put ^^ :-))

[lrshooting]

The instant the bullet leaves the barrel is the same instant the shooter has lost all control over where it ends up. Lets not forget that.
As for shooting small cartridges like a 308 or a 6.5 at a mile with any degree of accuracy on a consistant basis is simply hogwash.
And its also hogwash at 1500 yds and even 1200 on a consistant bases.
In fairness, certainly there will some differences due to location across the country. A 1500' elevation with a 60% humidity factor
will require more added elevation than an area with 5000' elevation and 10% humidity for sure. But it wont be night and day differences either.
Certainly there are some excellant 6.5 cartridges available and also 7mm. And ive never even implied otherwise.
But at the distances being discussed here they lack badly, and especially when compared to larger cartridges.
And admittedly even those give very diminishing returns on the investment.
When some of these newer 338 Lapua owners start stretching them out for distance there will be some dissapointments for sure.
One thing I have seen (not saying this is fact), but some are saying that their 7mm 300 short mags will out do a 338 until they lose to much velocity. Now, the same guys are saying it's actually cheaper to shoot a 338 lm by the time you have to replace barrels more often, buy brass, etc etc. What say you?

Just curious. Ive thought about 338 lapua, but not for range or accuracy or anything like that. Mainly just so I can have a big gun for playing around with. That's a different subject though.

Oh, btw, I would like to see what kind of stuff you do with your rifles. Sounded interesting.

[yobuck]

One thing I have seen (not saying this is fact), but some are saying that their 7mm 300 short mags will out do a 338 until they lose to much velocity. Now, the same guys are saying it's actually cheaper to shoot a 338 lm by the time you have to replace barrels more often, buy brass, etc etc. What say you?

Just curious. Ive thought about 338 lapua, but not for range or accuracy or anything like that. Mainly just so I can have a big gun for playing around with. That's a different subject though.

Oh, btw, I would like to see what kind of stuff you do with your rifles. Sounded interesting.

I cant speak for the 7x300 wsm as i have no experience with that cartridge. It should show similar results (almost as good) as a 7x300 win mag.
Frankly if your intentions are to use the gun for hunting, it should change your thought process. You are limiting your choices by the desire to use
a short action. I think we can all agree they make for an attractive gun. But your limited with the cartridge legnth especially with the longer bullets.
There is a long list of good cartridges from 6.5 to 30 cal that are excellant cartridges for 1000 yds or less. For shooting at animals beyond that distance
i personaly wouldnt build a gun less than 30 cal. As for the 7x300 wsm out doing a 338, that would of coarse depend on the mv of the 338. It might be one of those
zero to sixty type things we did with cars years back. I can tell you this much about the large 338s with mv of 3000 fps or more w/ 300 gr bullets.
(There aint nothing even close unless its bigger) For more than 30 years i shot a 30x378 wby on a custon action with a 36" barrel. The mv using 113gr
of h570 powder and a 200 gr smk was 3500 fps. Some guys actually got more than that but that was an accurate load in my gun. At 1500 yds the 200 smk
was superior over the 240 smk by a considerable ammount for trajectory. My trajectory chart called for 37 minits of elevation on a decent day. My current 338
is the same gun with a new 338 barrel. It starts out of the muzzel 300 fps slower than did my old 30x378. Yet it reaches the same rock with 5 minits less elevation
and its all down hill out from there for the 30x378. And its affected by wind far less meaning more consistancy. In my jeep i have 3 long range guns when im hunting.
A 7x300 weatherby on a rem action, a 300 norma on a weatherby action (which is my favorite gun), and the 338. In 5 years weve used the 338 1 time. We dont go
looking for 12/1500 yard shots. were actually happier with much closer shots. But if it happens, we have the right gun. And by the way all long range hunting in PA
is done from a bench or some type of (very) good tripod system. Meaning not some flimsey camera type tripod which might help for 1 shot.

[darkker]

As for shooting small cartridges like a 308 or a 6.5 at a mile with any degree of accuracy on a consistant basis is simply hogwash.
And its also hogwash at 1500 yds and even 1200 on a consistant bases..

That is so overwhelmingly ignorant of fact, I'm actually sad.
Feel free to look at any of my long range posts with pictures and targets. Feel free to take any form of mild interest in the PRS series using 6.5's & 6mm's to 1500 yards. Have a gander at this gent using a lowly 223 to a mile:
http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/shooting-223-mile-1.php
Watch any of Frank's Sniper's Hide YouTube videos showing otherwise. Head to Vegas and tell the boys at Sin City Precision they can't do that with their little Creedmoor rifles.
Or as I have said more than once here, come on out and watch what I can do on a consistent basis.

I'm sorry if you do not possess the ability to do so, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible; nor being done already.

[yobuck]

That is so overwhelmingly ignorant of fact, I'm actually sad.
Feel free to look at any of my long range posts with pictures and targets. Feel free to take any form of mild interest in the PRS series using 6.5's & 6mm's to 1500 yards. Have a gander at this gent using a lowly 223 to a mile:
http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/shooting-223-mile-1.php
I'm sorry if you do not possess the ability to do so, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible; nor being done already.

Well if you will reread what i said you might find i said it is (possible) but not (likely) on a consistant basis.
And, beyond that i have absolutly no problem with you or anybody else shooting (targets) with whatever you like as far as you like.
Shooting at animals however is an entirly different matter. There needs to be some ethics involved on our part before someone elses ethics are jammed down our throats.
If you would be paying attention instead of preaching, you would know that has happened, and is being talked about happening again.
Beyond that, what you seem to enjoy doing by shooting small cartridges at the distances you claim, serves no usefull purpose for anything
other than the satisfaction it obviously brings you. I seriously doubt you would be using a 308 on any long range hunt you actually paid to go on
where the distances could reach 1500 yds.
As for the L R H site, i have also been a member there for a long time. Certainly there are some knowledgable members there.
The (extreme) long range segment was originated as far as i recall about 5 or 6 years ago. The person most responsible for convincing
Len Bakus to create that, was a guy who goes by the name of Broz. The intent was to have a place where the (more experienced) people
like him for example, and no doubt you also, could go and discuss the finer points of long range. Well here we are say 6 years later and there
hasent been a single word (that ive seen) regarding even a 1500 yard kill. Fact is Brozes longest kill is under 1300 yards by his own words.
Mind you, im not criticising that, im just stating it for what it says. Shawn Carlock, is a well known individual there also.
He is no doubt a fine guy who builds long range guns and gives long range shooting classes. How important from a business standpoint would it be for him to be able to discuss
1 mile or longer kills using his guns? In a long back and forth conversation a couple years ago i got him to admit publicly on that site his longest personal kill was 1600 yds. Now thats what he said, and its up to each of us to take that as we see fit. Now he was carefull not to say he hadn't tried longer shots.
And i know enough about it to not push for those answers.
I am now 80 years old and have been doing this in one of the most well known places in the country over half of my life. One of my closest friends and every day hunting compaion for many years was the first man chosen to be inducted into the hall of fame at Williamsport. That didnt happen because he was a nice guy with good jokes. And you know what? he cant do it either on a consistant basis.

For anyone serious about shooting and especially hunting animals at long distances, talk to the people who really know guns and shooting rather than people on the internet
There are numerous very good gunsmiths who know what their talking about on this subject. Bruce Baer is but one who specializes in building long range target and hunting guns.
He himself is a shooter and long range hunter who dosent need to sling b s to impress people.

[darkker]

I did pay attention, you are the one who has gotten lost.
The OP has been talking about hunting to 3-500 yards; with Target shooting to 1,000K and beyond. Get off the "hunting at 1500" nonsense. Point of fact the OP purposely said on the second page he wasn't talking about hunting that far.
Saying you can't consistently hit that far with "Little" calibers is flat wrong. Not internet people, Precision Rifle Series real people CONSTANTLY do it with 6 & 6.5mm Creedmoors; as I stated, among many others.

You think shooting "little" cartridges at long distance: "Serves no usefull purpose for anything other than the satisfaction it obviously brings you." This whole forum is based around a hobby that is ONLY that, our personal enjoyment...

[yobuck]

Well i have a couple 223s, also a couple 308s, a few good 7mms, and a few others.
I have the place to do it and anybody doubting what i said is welcome to come and try it.
And again for i think the third time, (hitting) something isnt the issue.
Hitting the target, meaning the aiming point is the issue.
But you are correct for correcting me on the issue of personal satisfaction.
Much of whatever any of us do is for personal satisfaction.

[darkker]

But you are correct for correcting me

Finally, some common ground.
The real issue is you not accepting fact, or researching suggestions to the contrary of your ramblings.

Jim Richards used a really cute little thing called a 6mm Dasher, to shoot a 2.6872", 10-shot group at 1,000 yards last year in Montana. That's smaller than the bottom of your coffee mug, at 1,000 yards!

The Palma shooters which can only use 223/308 shoot 15 shots at 800, 900, 1,000 with metallic sights. Those competitors shoot .4's to .75 moa groups.

Here is the PRS series, which I already told you to look up, who shoot to 1,500. They ain't using the Ear-Splitten-loud-ga-boomin'
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/10/14/rifle-calibers-what-the-pros-use/

Those are just a few of the standardised clubs. There are a mass of great folks all over this country who shoot much farther than that with "little" cartridges; and enjoy the chase. Hitting the target that far may be difficult for you, but that does not preclude anyone else from being able to.

[lrshooting]

So i went ahead and got the 7mm.

Now to be clear, I already had the 308. I feel comfortable with it at all ranges I would actually hunt at, so for hunting, I have everything I need.

The 7mm will allow me to shoot about as far as Im capable of and further for targets. I ordered a krieger 28 inch #17 varmint (I think...) with flutes to help reduce some weight which seems like it might cause some serious undo stress on the action that isn't needed with that big of barrel. Sure, I could develop a load for .308, but thats just not that much fun compared to just upping the powder :)

If I so decide, I can get a long action sometime and rechamber it to a larger round or something more efficient and use the same barrel. Im going with SAUM for now since I find that most, including BR shooters, feel that it may have an edge on the WSM in several ways. Not going into details there, but that seems to be the general consensus there. I have time to change that though. Itll be awhile before I receive my barrel.

[FW Conch]

It's way cool when a plan comes together! Please let us know how it goes! :-)

[yobuck]

Finally, some common ground.
The real issue is you not accepting fact, or researching suggestions to the contrary of your ramblings.

Jim Richards used a really cute little thing called a 6mm Dasher, to shoot a 2.6872", 10-shot group at 1,000 yards last year in Montana. That's smaller than the bottom of your coffee mug, at 1,000 yards!

The Palma shooters which can only use 223/308 shoot 15 shots at 800, 900, 1,000 with metallic sights. Those competitors shoot .4's to .75 moa groups.

Here is the PRS series, which I already told you to look up, who shoot to 1,500. They ain't using the Ear-Splitten-loud-ga-boomin'
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/10/14/rifle-calibers-what-the-pros-use/

Those are just a few of the standardised clubs. There are a mass of great folks all over this country who shoot much farther than that with "little" cartridges; and enjoy the chase. Hitting the target that far may be difficult for you, but that does not preclude anyone else from being able to.

Im very familiar with (the fact) that the 6mm dasher was used to establish the smallest group ever shot with any gun at 1000 yds.
In fact, i believe the gun was built by Mark king who is a PA gunsmith. I would also be willing to bet that all 10 shots were fired in under 1 minit.
Im told that at that range in Montana they suspend shooting when the wind picks up. Im also very good friends for 40+ years with Frank Weber and his son Scott.
Both of whom are current and former record holding shooters at williamsport. They both are currently shooting dashers also built by Mark King.
But, they dont use them for hunting. Nor does Mark King use one for hunting. The current heavy gun record holder (by technicality) is a PA shooter
by name of Matt Klien who set his record with a 300 wsm also built by Mark King. But he uses a 338 Lapua improved for hunting. The Webers are using a 284 Baer,
a 308 Baer (both necked down 340 weatherbys) and also a 30 Goodling built by Sid Goodling another very good PA smith. They also 2 years ago started using a
custom built (Mark King) 50 caliber for long range PA hunting. At least here in PA where there are no doubt more serious long range hunters than any other individual
state, the trend has been continuously moving away from the smaller calibers for long range hunting.
At the Ridgeway rifle club where people from around the country come for sillouette shooting, you wont find any serious shooters using less than a 6.5 cartridge.
Reason being you wont always knock over the bigger steel targets with smaller cartridges. So much for using 243s for long range elk hunting.
Call Mark King who is no doubt as knowledgable an individual your apt to find regarding the 6mm dasher. Ask his opinion on using one for long range hunting.
Again, and im sorry for sounding like a broken record, but shooting long range and hunting long range is to compare apples and oranges.