Savage 10XP doesn't like 55-69 grain bullets?

[Taz575]

I picked up a used, in excellent condition, a Savage 10XP recently. Got some PMC 55gr .223, PPU .223 55gr, Am Eagle 55gr .223 to try it out. 1.5" groups or larger at 100 yds with it with the factory scope and stock. Put a Bell and Carlson Medalist Varmint stock on it with the aluminum bedding blocks, Mueller scope and tried it again. Groups again not that great with the 55 gr ammo. Tried some Black Hills 69gr reman .223 and 75gr reman 223 from Black hills and the groups were a little better, but still some fliers. Tried some 62 gr Fusion and Fusion MSR, and again, accuracy was around 2" at 100 yds. Tried some 77gr SMK Fed Gold Match and groups tightened up, but still usually has 1 flier or so in the group at 100 yds. Went back to 200 yds, 77gr SMK consistently at 1.5" groups, but it tends to cluster either 3 shots close and then 2 fliers, or 2 shots close/touching, another 2 shots close or touching around 1" apart, and then 1 high in the middle of the other 2, 2 shot clusters. 55gr Hornday V Max does a little under 1" at 100 yds with less fliers, but opens up at 200 yds, 3 to 4" groups. I try to shoot in the earlier morning when the wind is calmer and the 200 yd line is in the shade, so that keeps the barrel heat down.

With the Bell and Carlson stock, I torqued the front action screw down and then the rear screw, should I play with the screw tension to see if that makes a difference? Bolt tracks very smoothly with both screws torqued down pretty hard. There wasn't much difference in the group size with the factory plastic flexy stock with plastic pillars vs the Bell and Carlson with aluminum bedding block.

I figured the rifle would shoot better with 55-69 gr ammo, has anyone else seen a Savage this picky about ammo choices? I will start handloading for it (500 77gr SMK, 600 75gr Hornday and 250 55gr V Max heads) in the next week or two to see if that makes a difference. Even the 69gr SMK Black Hills was so so accuracy wise, around 1" where the 75/77gr stuff is more around 3/4 MOA.

My previous bench shooting experience is with .22lr rifles at 50 yds scoped; 5 shot, 1 hole groups around 1/4" to 3/8" are the norm for me with my Win 52 and CZ 452 and CCI SV ammo; I don't seem to have the flier problem at that distance, so I may go back to 50 yds with the .223 rifle and see what the groups look like since I know my capabilities at 50 yds vs the 200yd being new to me this summer. I shoot at 100 yds occasionally, but not a ton, so it very well could be me. Muzzle crown looks good, rifling is sharp and crisp, cleaned it several times, but still trying to figure out if it's me or the rifle. With my Howa 308 that I used to shoot at 100 yds (deer rifle), I was shooting 1/2-3/4" 5 shot groups at 100 yds with almost any ammo I put thru it (no fliers), and around 1.25" at 100yds for 10 shots of cheap .308 Surplus stuff under similar conditions.

Anything else I should look at with my form or rifle wise? Crown looks good, accutrigger is nice, don't see the action torquing in the stock, seem to get a good, consistent cheek weld/overall position with the rifle and the bench rest?

[sixonetonoffun]

Would expect about 1" to 1.5" from 55gr AE so thats not bad really. Fusion 62gr MSR did 3/4" pretty consistent for me. Using a 6-18x44 Redfield. Bone stock axis with lots of cool down between shots. Trigger was polished just a slightly lighter spring.

[J.Baker]

Your V-Max groups opening up at 200 isn't the ammo's fault, that's you. If it shoots MOA at 100 yards, it will be capable of holding MOA at any distance so long as the shooter does his part and accurately accounts for environmental conditions.

As for the 55gr stuff, I'll assume we're talking about cheap FMJ ammo - in which case what more do you expect? Cheap ammo isn't going to give you tiny little groups because it's horribly inconsistent. This inconsistency in the ammo is also what's causing your fliers. I guarantee you that if you check the bullet runout on the ammo it's probably all in the 0.010" to 0.020" range. The Black Hills and Federal Fusion reloads should be a little more consistent than the other stuff, but the Black Hills is still reman ammo (I can't recall if they use all one type of brass or if it's a mixture - worth checking as mixed brass = inconsistency as well).

As for anything else, if you haven't already double-check that the factory scope mount screws are all tight and that the front one isn't bottoming out on the barrel shank. Other than that, I suggest trying some quality ammo, or even better - roll your own and work up a load specifically for the rifle.

[lrshooting]

As Baker said, check those mounts. I about quit on my 308 until I took off the scope and the front mount just about fell off...

[Taz575]

Sight mounts are solid; I've checked them each time I switch scopes out. I will check to see if the screw it sticking down too far and I have a Weaver aluminum full rail I can install as well.

The range has trees on 3 sides, but the target end is slightly up hill in the open and winds do swirl at the targets that you don't feel at the bench, which is a bit more protected. They mowed the field, so I couldn't use the grass to check the wind like I usually do.

Looking forward to start reloading for it! At 200 yds, I will often have 3 shots very close and 2 fliers, or 2 clusters of 2 shots each, but apart, so the potential is there, it's just putting it all together!

[Stonewall_Jackson]

EVERY rifle has ammo it likes and ammo it doesn't like. It is not at all uncommon to have to try dozens of different off the shelf loads to get something really good and even then the lot number has to remain the same to get the same results. I have had very good luck with Black Hills re manufactured ammo in my 12 LRPV. Antying 68 gr. up to 75 is usually the best but I have seen 52 gr. do better than anything else. I had another box of 52 gr. with me the day I shot a 4" group at 400 yards with my LRPV. I shot up the first box and discovered the second box was all over the place relatively. It was from a different lot.

For the most part though Black Hills has been very consistent for me as long as I stay in the right weight range. I actually don't see any improvement with the new manufactured Black Hills ammo that uses the same bullets. If I find a lot of ammo that works well I'll buy up a bunch of it. I don't use it exclusively because I can't always find it or I couldn't for a long time. Now I've been able to get it pretty regular. I got a case of it for Christmas in fact.

Having a rifle throw a flier can be caused by many factors. The wind is certainly a possibility although at 200 yards it generally isn't a problem unless you're shooting in 35 mph gusts. I actually haven't been able to shoot my LRPV for a good while due to health issues and not being close to my home gun range (I had to move almost 3 years ago). In that 3 years my shooting has dropped off substantially. But I did get the LRPV out a few days ago. Shooting about 160 yards I shot 3 groups of 5 shots with no warm up time or anything else. My groups ranged from .6" to 1.1". But I had put a new bipod on the rifle, changed the scope and was shooting off a new table I just bought. So there was some reason to think I just wasn't settled in with the equipment changes. But the more I think about it the more I realize the problems were with me. I just didn't take the time to pull the trigger right. I didn't control my breathing and I didn't shoot between heart beats. Those things matter a lot and they can make a group be much bigger before you know it. I also changed the scope mounts BTW but all that stuff was working perfectly. I just wasn't pulling the trigger as well as I did before I had to take time off from shooting that rifle. I believe I can do much better. What I'm getting at is that you have to know for sure you aren't the problem when it comes to shooting. Once you learn these things you remember them and you'll know if you did them right even if it takes a while to figure it out. I now know I didn't shoot as well as I normally would. But I had zero fliers that weren't caused by me. You just don't see as many fliers with a centerfire as you do a rimfire I saw where you said you were coming from shooting a .22. You'll have 25 times as many fliers with rimfire ammo. That's just the nature of the beast. But again I can show you where I have dozens of different brands of .223 ammo still in the safe leftover from my trying to find the right ammo for my one .223 rifle. And again Black Hills has done very well for me but that doesn't mean it will work for you. I have similar collections of half empty boxes of 30.06 and other centerfire cartridges. That's just the process I go through to make my guns work the best they can work.

[Taz575]

The Black Hills, Fusion and Gold Metal Match shoot very well in my 308, which is why I tried those in the 223. I have had excellent results with CCI SV in .22lr, with few fliers. I think I am going to start at 50 yds; I know I can group well at that distance and then go to 100 yds and practice the basics there before going back to 200 yds to try to eliminate my errors from the picture. I will handload some 55gr stuff to try to get more consistent ammo and see how the higher quality 55gr stuff works, too.

I have a 8.5-25x scope; I usually use it around 14-18x and the heartbeat is very noticeable, so I have been practicing shooting between heart beats, which is harder than it sounds!

[GaCop]

Being a used rifle, have you checked to see if it still has copper fouling in it? Many factory barrels can be "copper mines" no matter how many rounds have been through them. What type of front/rear rest are you using? I have the Mueller scope and the eye relief is very critical on them

[Taz575]

I use Butchs Bore Shine followed by MPro7 Copper Cutter solvents until patches come out clean/not blue. I am using a Caldwell Rock front rest and a rear Cabelas bag. Yes, I am familiar with the eye relief with the scope, too. Hoping to pick up some powder and primers and do some reloading this week, too!

[GaCop]

Keep us up to date on how the rifle does with your hand loads.

[Taz575]

Will do! I got brass deprimed and tumbled, going out today for power and primers. Already have bullets on hand.

For those that have Bell and Carlson stocks with full aluminum bedding blocks, what do you use for torque poundages? I put the rifle into the stock, put the action screws in a few threads each, bounced the stock on my foot to make sure the action was all the way back and then torqued down the front screw and torqued down the rear screw. I think I will have to play with the rear screw settings maybe? I don't notice any torque to the receiver and the bolt runs smoothly, but I see other people have the rear tang free floated, not sure if mine is.

[Taz575]

Well, I think part of it was breaking in the barrel. Did some shooting today, had a breeze all day with some gusts. I didn't shoot during the gusts, but ignored the slight by almost constant breeze. 69 gr SMK Black Hill reman. went from around 1" to around 1/2-3/4" consistently by the end of the shooting session. Did some reloading, too. Picked up a Forster press, RCBS dies, 77gr SMK, 75gr Hornady OTM, and some 55gr v Max, Varget and IMR4895. Got the remainder of the reloading accessories (tumblr, powder measure, digital scales, case trimmer, etc) and went to town over the past couple of days. Loaded up some 77gr Sierra Match Kings in some PMC bass that I fired thru the rifle before, tumbled, deprimed, full length size, trimmed down. Went with 2.267" COL and tried some at 21.5, 22, 22.5, 22.8, 23.1 and 23.4gr of Varget. I did 10 of the 21.5 and 22gr, and 5 of the other weights. 23.4 seemed to open up the groups a bit, but between 22gr and 23gr, I was getting nice groups. I did 5 shots of each and then went back and put the other 5 of the 2 lighter loaded into the same group as I did originally. I had a few called fliers out of all of the groups, but the groups were much more consistent that what I had shot at 100 yds before. The 22gr 10 shot group was pretty nice...it was around .75" tall (there was one called flier I pulled 1/4" or so up from the group) and around the same wide, but most were in a nice little cluster. Without the called flier, the group was around 1/2" tall and 3/4" wide for 10 shots on a breezy day. The 10 shot 21.5gr group was around .6" tall and around 1" or so wide; there was more lateral dispersion. The other groups would often have 3 or 4 shots around 1/2" and then one out of the group; sometimes a called flier, sometimes not, but with the breeze today, it was a TON better than I normally shoot! Most of the fliers were off to the left, which was the direction the wind was blowing. If I pulled a shot, it was usually high or low. Gonna load up some more tomorrow with Varget and try to play between 22 and 23gr of Varget since that it what it seems to like the best consistency wise. I will also play with the COL as well to get the bullet closer to the rifling.

[Taz575]

Did some more reloading and shooting! Set the bullets a little farther out so they are closer to the rifling.

Hornady 55gr V max shoot nicely at 100 yds!
Hornady V max, 2.3125" COL, 23gr Varget:
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh102/Taz575/Taz575001/55gr%20V%20max%2023g%20Varget.jpg (http://s254.photobucket.com/user/Taz575/media/Taz575001/55gr%20V%20max%2023g%20Varget.jpg.html)

23.5gr Varget:
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh102/Taz575/Taz575001/55gr%20V%20max%2023.5gr%20Varget.jpg (http://s254.photobucket.com/user/Taz575/media/Taz575001/55gr%20V%20max%2023.5gr%20Varget.jpg.html)

77 SMK 2.375" COL, 22gr Varget. The left most shot was my first shot, cold bore of the day after giving it a good cleaning last night!
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh102/Taz575/Taz575001/77gr%20SMK%2022gr%20Varget.jpg (http://s254.photobucket.com/user/Taz575/media/Taz575001/77gr%20SMK%2022gr%20Varget.jpg.html)

22.6gr Varget under the 77 SMK:
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh102/Taz575/Taz575001/77SMK%2022.8%20Varget.jpg (http://s254.photobucket.com/user/Taz575/media/Taz575001/77SMK%2022.8%20Varget.jpg.html)

And some 23gr of Varget:
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh102/Taz575/Taz575001/77SMK%2023gr%20Varget.jpg (http://s254.photobucket.com/user/Taz575/media/Taz575001/77SMK%2023gr%20Varget.jpg.html)

Got cocky after the 100 yd groups and went back to 200. Groups opened up a good bit to around 1.5-2" or so. My first group was with the 22gr Varget and produced a vertical strung group around 1.25" tall and around 5/16" wide, almost a perfectly straight line! Definetly need to work more at 200yds to get better groups. I found the target I was aiming at was hard to do this with, so I will be making up sme new targets.

[Texas10]

Maybe this will help. Go here: http://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/targets/ for some good targets. I download and print out on card stock, available where copy paper is sold. Makes for nice clean holes.

All you have to do is hang a couple of 8 1/2 X 11 targets with teeny tiny dots at 200 yards and suddenly a bunch of people will come to you asking for advise. LOL

Fire one into the target and 9 into the berm and suddenly they'll think you're a GOD :)

[Taz575]

LOL...I should shoot a 50yd target with my Win 52, then hang it at 200 yds and fire into the backstop...LOL. Those are great targets to print, too! Thanks!

[Stonewall_Jackson]

Fire one into the target and 9 into the berm and suddenly they'll think you're a GOD :)

So that's where those one hole groups come from. Hmmm... :)

Just for the record I shot this set of groups yesterday with my 12 LRPV using 75 gr. Black Hills reman. with Sierra Matchking bullets. This is typical for this rifle with ammo it likes. I shot one flyer because I pulled the trigger too soon. I have the trigger set really light on that rifle. It's the loner to the left.

http://www.a-framevideo.com/Sep%2018%202015%20100%20yard%20LRPV%20target%20mea sured.jpg

[lrshooting]

I seem to find that usually the bullets don't like the gun...:)

Wrong twist rates. Almost all decent bullets will shoot with the right load though. Factory loads are the ones that are a pain with various seating depths, charges, etc., so you never really know why they didn't work right. I did an experiment and reloaded a factory case with the exact same bullet and it went from terrible to good groups. Not amazing, but good

[Stonewall_Jackson]

Factory loads are the ones that are a pain with various seating depths, charges, etc., so you never really know why they didn't work right.

Just like the rimfire shooters have found I see that various lots of the same brand of factory loads can be great or awful. So if you find some ammo that works it's a great idea to buy more of the same with the same lot number. It's a pain I know but when you're old like me and figure it would take longer to master reloading than I've got to live... well you get the idea. I don't expect to die soon but I don't expect to keep shooting another 20 years either. It will take me at least a while to learn to load well. Or I can shoot groups like those above with factory loads that I buy from the right lot. It's not as hard as it seems. I just test ammo and if it works I buy a case of it. A case of .223 lasts me a good while. If I needed more I could just buy 2 cases at once.

[Taz575]

I started to reload :) Around $8 for 20 77SMK rounds with Varget vs paying $24 for a box of 20 Fed Gold match with the same bullet. I will try some regular 55gr stuff and some cheaper bullets to see how they do, too. I am seating my bullets to single feed into my rifle, so they are a bit longer than the 2.26" that the reloading manuals call for with the 77gr SMK loads. Tightened up the groups when I seated the bullets out farther.